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Oh, alright, if we all play the ranking game, I'll take my turn.
1. COMA
2. THE (FIRST) GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY
3. THE 13TH WARRIOR
4. CONGO
5. TIMELINE
6. RUNAWAY
I leave out PURSUIT, as I don't own a recording of this and have not seen the movie.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2020 - 2:33 AM
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By: |
BasilDowl
(Member)
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@Jeff
I read the bio of Sherry Lansing, back in that day she was head of Paramount, and she stated that Congo went through pretty substantial changes to try to salvage it from the terrible viewer cards they got from pre-release screenings. It is also possible that this last act was changed quite late so that Jerry was not granted the time to score it, or re-score it.
This makes an awful lot of sense. I have a kid's photobook that came out as part of the promotional tie-ins for the film, and there are four key deleted scenes pictured in it, and I've never seen the actual footage anywhere, which would suggest a studio re-cut or problems?
1. When Elliott jumps from the plane, he lands in a tree, and is stuck - Ross cuts him loose and they share a moment;
2. They ask each other if they are ok, during the 'battle';
3. More battle scenes;
4. They kiss on the balloon at the end - this is an obvious one in the finished film, as there is an awkward cut just after Elliott throws the diamond away.
This all suggests that there was a really unconvincing love interest/romance plot that they have cut out completely, and this presumably would have interfered with the scoring of the film, particularly the finale.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2020 - 6:11 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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@Jeff
I read the bio of Sherry Lansing, back in that day she was head of Paramount, and she stated that Congo went through pretty substantial changes to try to salvage it from the terrible viewer cards they got from pre-release screenings. It is also possible that this last act was changed quite late so that Jerry was not granted the time to score it, or re-score it.
This makes an awful lot of sense. I have a kid's photobook that came out as part of the promotional tie-ins for the film, and there are four key deleted scenes pictured in it, and I've never seen the actual footage anywhere, which would suggest a studio re-cut or problems?
1. When Elliott jumps from the plane, he lands in a tree, and is stuck - Ross cuts him loose and they share a moment;
2. They ask each other if they are ok, during the 'battle';
3. More battle scenes;
4. They kiss on the balloon at the end - this is an obvious one in the finished film, as there is an awkward cut just after Elliott throws the diamond away.
This all suggests that there was a really unconvincing love interest/romance plot that they have cut out completely, and this presumably would have interfered with the scoring of the film, particularly the finale.
Thanks Grim, yes, with that info, I think it is all making sense now, from what I recall Lansing said that after the preview cards they took this film more into the adventure / quasi horror film. I think the first version by Frank Marshall, producer pal of Spielberg, was sort of Indiana Jones comedy adventure. It is all second guessing at this stage, but they felt this final version of the film 'worked better", but I have my doubts about that. In any case, pretty certain that with this late stage reshoot and editing Goldsmith had probably already moved on with his schedule.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2020 - 7:58 AM
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By: |
wizardofoz
(Member)
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I like all the Crichton/Goldsmith collaborations--they were a perfect match as far as Goldsmith's techno leanings were concerned--meaning Crichton was fascinated with science and technology and Goldsmith's fascination with electronics and effects and his keen understanding of how to score high concept ideas resulted in some of Goldsmith's best work.
I vividly remember watching the premiere of Pursuit as a kid and finding it (like many of the other suspense TV-movies of the period like Spielberg's Duel) thrilling, well before I was aware of Goldsmith's name, and the score blends his then-contemporary sound and his thriller/suspense approaches perfectly.
I do find Coma and The Great Train Robbery remain my favorites (and that year, 1978, still to me might be the most amazing in terms of his output) although I quite enjoy all the others. I do wish Congo had been made and scored in '82--the book is as convincing as all of Crichton's other novels, right up til the exploding volcanos at the end make you realize you've been pulled into a cartoon. To me the movie glossed over the convincing parts and focused on being cartoony. The score is a lot of fun but I've always been disappointed that Goldsmith basically punted on scoring the action climax which is just tracked (but you could say the same about Breakheart Pass).
This is what I am saying!
Maybe I’m getting confused by some members’ reactions to the way the score works in the film as opposed to the harmonic musicality of Goldsmith’s music.
Of course, all of Goldsmith’s scores work with the film even when he wrote them in three days.
But, Pursuit was churned out with the same energy and intellectual approach that Goldsmith gave to the Barnaby Jones pilot. These may be competent scores but in no land of any music-loving Goldsmith fan and movie music fan can they be compared in the same breath.
Goldsmith wrote his scores on five different levels depending on how much he was paid and how much time he had to compose it.
Like anyone,If you pay someone peanuts and you get monkeys. Why bother? Goldsmiths career is full of these situations.
1. crap he wrote for crap - the hideous “a step out of line” and “fold,spindle,mutilate”
2. Good crap for decent crap - “shamus” “warning shot” and s*p*y*s, “trouble with angels,” “Dennis the menace,” and IQ and The Lonely Guy
3. Lovely television scores like The Homecoming and The Red Pony (which is brilliant filmically but is a musical kncokxoff of someone else’s style.)
The next two levels are the byplay between great scoring with unlimited resources and great scoring and music with unlimited resources.if you’re eating a hot dog don’t pretend it is Wagyu.
4. The “Leviathan”, “Congo”, Medicine Man,” you know the ones; “Air Force One” and “Executve Decision” scores.
5. Then there are the great scores. Patton, Islands of the Stream, 100 Rifles! Bandoleo.
Now I’m going to have to add a sixth category.
6. The sublime scores. The Wild Rovers, The Blue Max, ‘The Monument’ from Logan’s Run, Rio Conchos, Star Trek:TMP, The Great Train Robbery, The Wind and the Lion - and many more.
In 1 and 2 Goldsmith hadn’t even started his engine. In 3 he was idling. In 4 he put his brain in first gear. In 5 he cared, 2nd and 3rd. In 4th he floored it.
Please! Do not mention “Do Not fold, spindle or mutilate” in the same breath as “The Great Train Robbery.”
If you disagree tell me why I’m wrong on any or every level.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2020 - 8:48 AM
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By: |
Tom Servo
(Member)
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I like all the Crichton/Goldsmith collaborations--they were a perfect match as far as Goldsmith's techno leanings were concerned--meaning Crichton was fascinated with science and technology and Goldsmith's fascination with electronics and effects and his keen understanding of how to score high concept ideas resulted in some of Goldsmith's best work.
I vividly remember watching the premiere of Pursuit as a kid and finding it (like many of the other suspense TV-movies of the period like Spielberg's Duel) thrilling, well before I was aware of Goldsmith's name, and the score blends his then-contemporary sound and his thriller/suspense approaches perfectly.
I do find Coma and The Great Train Robbery remain my favorites (and that year, 1978, still to me might be the most amazing in terms of his output) although I quite enjoy all the others. I do wish Congo had been made and scored in '82--the book is as convincing as all of Crichton's other novels, right up til the exploding volcanos at the end make you realize you've been pulled into a cartoon. To me the movie glossed over the convincing parts and focused on being cartoony. The score is a lot of fun but I've always been disappointed that Goldsmith basically punted on scoring the action climax which is just tracked (but you could say the same about Breakheart Pass).
This is what I am saying!
Maybe I’m getting confused by some members’ reactions to the way the score works in the film as opposed to the harmonic musicality of Goldsmith’s music.
Of course, all of Goldsmith’s scores work with the film even when he wrote them in three days.
But, Pursuit was churned out with the same energy and intellectual approach that Goldsmith gave to the Barnaby Jones pilot. These may be competent scores but in no land of any music-loving Goldsmith fan and movie music fan can they be compared in the same breath.
Goldsmith wrote his scores on five different levels depending on how much he was paid and how much time he had to compose it.
Like anyone,If you pay someone peanuts and you get monkeys. Why bother? Goldsmiths career is full of these situations.
1. crap he wrote for crap - the hideous “a step out of line” and “fold,spindle,mutilate”
2. Good crap for decent crap - “shamus” “warning shot” and s*p*y*s, “trouble with angels,” “Dennis the menace,” and IQ and The Lonely Guy
3. Lovely television scores like The Homecoming and The Red Pony (which is brilliant filmically but is a musical kncokxoff of someone else’s style.)
The next two levels are the byplay between great scoring with unlimited resources and great scoring and music with unlimited resources.if you’re eating a hot dog don’t pretend it is Wagyu.
4. The “Leviathan”, “Congo”, Medicine Man,” you know the ones; “Air Force One” and “Executve Decision” scores.
5. Then there are the great scores. Patton, Islands of the Stream, 100 Rifles! Bandoleo.
Now I’m going to have to add a sixth category.
6. The sublime scores. The Wild Rovers, The Blue Max, ‘The Monument’ from Logan’s Run, Rio Conchos, Star Trek:TMP, The Great Train Robbery, The Wind and the Lion - and many more.
In 1 and 2 Goldsmith hadn’t even started his engine. In 3 he was idling. In 4 he put his brain in first gear. In 5 he cared, 2nd and 3rd. In 4th he floored it.
Please! Do not mention “Do Not fold, spindle or mutilate” in the same breath as “The Great Train Robbery.”
If you disagree tell me why I’m wrong on any or every level.
I personally don't think Goldsmith was capable of writing "crap", which doesn't equate to everything being sublime, but it's all interesting and engaging. And I think "A Step Out Of Line" is awesome.
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But, Pursuit was churned out with the same energy and intellectual approach that Goldsmith gave to the Barnaby Jones pilot. These may be competent scores but in no land of any music-loving Goldsmith fan and movie music fan can they be compared in the same breath.
To what? The Great Train Robbery? Of course they can.
Goldsmith wrote his scores on five different levels depending on how much he was paid and how much time he had to compose it.
You say this like it's a scientific fact, when this is really just your own personal theory which many people likely will not agree with. I find it interesting but I certainly don't agree. For example, some of his greatest scores were written on a short time schedule -- think Chinatown, one of his most creative, popular, and critically well-regarded works!
Like anyone,If you pay someone peanuts and you get monkeys. Why bother? Goldsmiths career is full of these situations.
Huh? Goldsmith was no doubt paid the least early in his career, the 50s and early 60s. IMO this time features some of his greatest and most creative work. Think he got a lot of money to score those 16 Thriller episodes? Or during his seven years under contract to CBS? I doubt it. But he did some *incredible* work during this period. I'm sure he was paid the most during the 90s -- at least I've heard his regular fee then was high, though he may have lowered it to work on certain projects or with people he liked. Yet ironically so many of his fans (not including me, to be clear) feel that his 90s work during the "ponytail era" was less inspired.
1. crap he wrote for crap - the hideous “a step out of line” and “fold,spindle,mutilate”
I disagree with you strongly (and agree with the other poster) that A Step Out of Line is "crap". I've never seen the film but the score is very interesting. I'll confess that I do kind of agree with you on Do Not Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate...one of my least favorite Goldsmith scores. That said, I don't think Jerry necessarily wrote what he did lazily or unintentionally. Maybe so, but if he did it was a rare case in his prolific output.
2. Good crap for decent crap - “shamus” “warning shot” and s*p*y*s, “trouble with angels,” “Dennis the menace,” and IQ and The Lonely Guy
"Good/decent crap" seems to be like something of a non-sequitur, unless you're saying "crap" isn't necessarily bad? I.Q. is another least favorite Goldsmith score of mine (at least on album; I've heard it was exactly what the film needed). The others I either like or love.
3. Lovely television scores like The Homecoming and The Red Pony (which is brilliant filmically but is a musical kncokxoff of someone else’s style.)
Seems like a strange category, based on what medium Jerry was writing for rather than the actual quality of his music. The Red Pony actually got theatrical distribution overseas apparently, and I think it is a sublime and transcendent score...I'd place it in your added sixth category.
The next two levels are the byplay between great scoring with unlimited resources and great scoring and music with unlimited resources.if you’re eating a hot dog don’t pretend it is Wagyu.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here at all. "Byplay"? I'm trying to understand the distinction between the two categories, which seem to have "great scoring" and "unlimited resources" in common but one is "great scoring and music" and the other is only "great scoring" without being great music?
4. The “Leviathan”, “Congo”, Medicine Man,” you know the ones; “Air Force One” and “Executve Decision” scores.
5. Then there are the great scores. Patton, Islands of the Stream, 100 Rifles! Bandoleo.
Now I’m going to have to add a sixth category.
6. The sublime scores. The Wild Rovers, The Blue Max, ‘The Monument’ from Logan’s Run, Rio Conchos, Star Trek:TMP, The Great Train Robbery, The Wind and the Lion - and many more.
Again this seems entirely subjective while you're acting as if it's scientific. To me it seems like your added sixth category is some sort of subset of your fifth category (but you don't think Islands of the Stream is "sublime"? for me it's much moreso than Great Train Robbery, Wild Rovers, or even The Wind and the Lion...)
In 1 and 2 Goldsmith hadn’t even started his engine. In 3 he was idling. In 4 he put his brain in first gear. In 5 he cared, 2nd and 3rd. In 4th he floored it.
Your last two sentences here are seriously confusing, and I think you must have some typos or something (at the very least you meant to write 6th in the last one I assume?)
But to your premise as far as I understand it: In my opinion, Jerry's creative engine was literally *never* not running. It's part of why he is my favorite composer. Even in my least favorite works of his I find interesting ideas and him experimenting with things.
Please! Do not mention “Do Not fold, spindle or mutilate” in the same breath as “The Great Train Robbery.”
If you disagree tell me why I’m wrong on any or every level.
As you wish... first I'll point out that *no one* here mentioned Do Not Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate until *you* did (and you "mentioned it in the same breath" as The Great Train Robbery, to boot!) In fact I've never seen anyone in any thread mention those two scores in the same breath before, until you.
Yavar
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2020 - 9:30 AM
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By: |
nerfTractor
(Member)
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I like all the Crichton/Goldsmith collaborations--they were a perfect match as far as Goldsmith's techno leanings were concerned--meaning Crichton was fascinated with science and technology and Goldsmith's fascination with electronics and effects and his keen understanding of how to score high concept ideas resulted in some of Goldsmith's best work.
I vividly remember watching the premiere of Pursuit as a kid and finding it (like many of the other suspense TV-movies of the period like Spielberg's Duel) thrilling, well before I was aware of Goldsmith's name, and the score blends his then-contemporary sound and his thriller/suspense approaches perfectly.
I do find Coma and The Great Train Robbery remain my favorites (and that year, 1978, still to me might be the most amazing in terms of his output) although I quite enjoy all the others. I do wish Congo had been made and scored in '82--the book is as convincing as all of Crichton's other novels, right up til the exploding volcanos at the end make you realize you've been pulled into a cartoon. To me the movie glossed over the convincing parts and focused on being cartoony. The score is a lot of fun but I've always been disappointed that Goldsmith basically punted on scoring the action climax which is just tracked (but you could say the same about Breakheart Pass).
Amen. I have a playlist just called 1978 that remains my most played, ever since that year, which also happened to be my 13th on earth and the year I fully caught the soundtrack virus.
I have to go with Coma here for the reasons Jeff talks about closely followed by Great Train. Coma for me is Jerry digging deep into his most Bartokian inspirations, both in terms of the uniquely dissonant sound world he creates for the tense moments and the icy nighttime brilliance of the tonal writing. It’s peerless in his output. And Great Train Robbery is just pure bliss (though I thought it was 1979). Even Pauline Kael who infamously hated overbearing film music and chafed at Jerry’s music at times (she said Islands in the Stream sounded like “reject Delibes”) mentioned his music favorably here. Paraphrasing she said, “In the rare moments the action flags you can always just enjoy Jerry Goldsmith’s deft score.” High praise from Pauline.
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