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I knew you would be converted...
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"il ponte di cordi" (CD 1/Track 9) blew me away.
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Jan 19, 2021 - 12:23 PM
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By: |
mikael488
(Member)
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Wow, this is all fascinating to read. I didn’t realise that the GBU score was such a COW (can of worms).
It had never even crossed my mind that the score used for a given scene might be different from country to country. Or that, even in the same country, different releases might include different pieces of music. How? Why?!!! Is this common, or a quirky one-off?
The version I have here is the Blu-ray from the “man with no name” 3 disc set. According to the box it’s a 2014 release by 20th Century Fox.” And, yes - from memory, the desert scene with the boot does indeed seem to be accompanied by the opening strings of “The Desert”. I need to go back and re-listen to double check (and then try to work out if I can create a home made replica!).
The brief cue heard in that scene is used only on the English 5.1 remix which was created for the extended English-language version DVD back in 2002. It's not the music originally intended for the Boot scene. Besides, this sequence was cut from the version distributed outside of Italy.
Here's the same scene in the current Italian version which uses the correct track "Lo stivale":
https://youtu.be/KAk7ZAtTDuE?t=3546
Interestingly, a rare Italian 35 mm IB tech print from 1966 uses part of the track "Secondo deserto" instead of "Lo stivale":
https://vimeo.com/169704930 (@ 1:31) - the music placement is different as well.
Footage/music comparison of the Tuco torture scene...
Italian theatrical release 1966:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msR_cvWHKzs
International/U.S. version 1967:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN3Du3ax9wE
The torture scene in the original Italian version is much longer, more brutal and features the longest version of La storia di un soldato (track 28 Disc 2). The same scene in the International/U.S. version was re-cut/shortened by about 2 min. and uses a different version of the song (track 25 Disc 1). This latter version is the one most of us have grown up with.
The 5.1 remix on the current Italian version of the movie (found on both the CVC DVD [2000] and Mondo blu-ray [2009]) strangely uses the LP version of "Il Triello" for the last part of the track whereas the original mono mix on both releases feature the version we're more used to, i.e. the one where the trumpet stops playing before the end. On the LP version the trumpet continues to play until the very end of the track, and the background galloping rhythm is slower:
https://youtu.be/KAk7ZAtTDuE?t=9727
Weird, isn't it?
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It’s certainly interesting to see and hear about all these creative differences. And great to read all the discussion about this landmark score!
We did notice some audio variations between the Italian and USA theatrical versions and, of course, the newer extended cut. For the Quartet set, it became a case of largely, but not necessarily always precisely, moving in step with the extended cut. Music largely or entirely unique to other cuts or language tracks, as well as for deleted scenes, was mostly placed in sequence.
I also transferred in the 1990 M-G-M Laserdisc for reference as there were a few spurious differences between the 5.1 and mono on the Blu-ray that needed checking against an ‘authentic’ mono.
We deliberately moved a few things to the ‘Bonus’ section. Like the “Intermezzo musicale”, which is slightly different to the film version and the only performance/take we had. In that case, the cue was short and kind of musically at odds with the architecture of the rest of the score.
Regarding music differences in different cuts and language tracks of films more generally speaking, I can think of an example of another film where the separate mono dialogue, music, and effects (D/M/E) elements had music on them that isn’t in the movie. When combined, these tracks should give us pretty much precisely what we hear theatrically. So, it was must have been a very last-minute decision to drop that music. Of course, music is sometimes deliberately substituted for home video releases when licences can’t be issued/re-issued, but that’s usually about songs not score.
Sometimes the more you look, the bigger the jigsaw gets.
Chris
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The 5.1 remix on the current Italian version of the movie (found on both the CVC DVD [2000] and Mondo blu-ray [2009]) strangely uses the LP version of "Il Triello" for the last part of the track whereas the original mono mix on both releases feature the version we're more used to, i.e. the one where the trumpet stops playing before the end. On the LP version the trumpet continues to play until the very end of the track, and the background galloping rhythm is slower:
https://youtu.be/KAk7ZAtTDuE?t=9727
Weird, isn't it?
Many thanks for all of these comparisons. Yes, it is *very* weird (but also very interesting at the same time).
The link to The Trio poses even more questions as it is neither the “Album Version” nor what I refer to as the “Film Version” (in the clip, there were chimes when the music kicks back in for part 2, but these do not appear on the Album version). So this would appear to be yet another version of The Trio!
This has been a real eye-opener for me - it basically means that we all have our own personal “official” scores, depending on which version of the film we know and love.
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Sometimes the more you look, the bigger the jigsaw gets.
Thank you for sharing those details. I completely agree with the jigsaw quote btw!
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One of the biggest pleasures of this set is the programmatic aspect.
The curation of the audio and its programming within the three discs is all exceptional.
Best "flow" i've experienced on a record album in a long time.
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Disc 2 today again. What a delight.
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In the final analysis, Chris Malone ends his liner notes with this solid advice:
"When you have to listen, listen! Don't talk!"
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"Arrivo nella cittadina" (CD 1/Track 28). Thumbs up.
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With affection towards Telarc and tongue firmly planted in cheek, here’s an alternate front cover and replacement page for the booklet.
Chris
Muhahaha... those were the days. :-)
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Is it wrong of me to hear some of Tiomkin's Rio Bravo in this score?
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Is it wrong of me to hear some of Tiomkin's Rio Bravo in this score?
No, I think Tiomkin was a hugely influential film composer, Morricone was certainly aware of him. Particularly the "Deguello" music was an obvious starting point/inspiration for Morricone's Dollar music films.
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Leone insisted on Morricone using Tiomkin's Deguello music from Rio Bravo and The Alamo for A Fistful of Dollars, but relented when Morricone threatened to quit. Morricone dug up an old theatrical lullaby which he transformed into a Deguello-like Mexican trumpet ballad and it became the "Theme from A Fistful of Dollars."
Leone liked it so much that he wanted to reuse it for For a Dollars More, but Morricone wrote him a fresh ballad for the picture called "The Showdown" (aka "Sixty Seconds to What"). The ballad concept continued with "The Trio" for The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.
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Leone insisted on Morricone using Tiomkin's Deguello music from Rio Bravo and The Alamo for A Fistful of Dollars, but relented when Morricone threatened to quit. Morricone dug up an old theatrical lullaby which he transformed into a Deguello-like Mexican trumpet ballad and it became the "Theme from A Fistful of Dollars."
Leone liked it so much that he wanted to reuse it for For a Dollars More, but Morricone wrote him a fresh ballad for the picture called "The Showdown" (aka "Sixty Seconds to What"). The ballad concept continued with "The Trio" for The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.
And it was Lacerenza who added all the trumpet flourishes ( appoggiatura, or whatever they are called) the weren't written, so said EM.
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Morricone specifically stated that Lacerenza performed all of the "melismas and ornamentations that I had written."
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...And still the release of the year!
For 2020. And most plays in 2021.
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