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Posted: |
Jan 16, 2021 - 7:19 AM
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By: |
Ostinato
(Member)
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All 15?
Indeed, though it varies with each score (even various cues within each score). One of the worst offenders is the stereo version of "King Kong vs. Godzilla", which originally has no reverb.
When I lived in Texas, I had access to the Futureland releases, which someone I used to know owns. He also had rips of the boxes. While I despise piracy of music, it did allow me to compare the Futureland releases with the Perfect Collection boxes. In most cases, the Futureland releases sounded better overall, despite some noticeable tape deterioration. They're likely as close to hearing the tapes themselves as we can get.
The boxes tended to address the deterioration, but the added reverb bogs it down, though does help with any cue that has abrupt edits or abrupt endings, which would have sounded a bit jarring otherwise.
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I have both the Futureland and Perfect Box releases - agree the reverb added for the Perfect Box obscures detail and represents an unfortunate altering of the original recordings. They could use some help, but not that kind of "help."
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2021 - 6:37 PM
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By: |
Ostinato
(Member)
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I guess the lesson to be learned is, all the lucky bastards that have the Futureland CD's better hold onto them.
I sure wish I was one of them.
On the bright side, most aren't too difficult to come across. I recently obtained several of them, most of which were still sealed (three were opened but still in their original shrink wrap and in pristine condition), at unbeatable prices. The majority of them were from the Toho Monster Film Selection series, but I did get a copy of Godzilla vs. Hedorah (which is my favorite Godzilla score) and Complete Recordings: Akira Ifukube Toho Special Effects Film Music 10, which is the two disc release of "Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II". The most expensive of the bunch I obtained was $60, and that was for a sealed copy of "Space Amoeba".
I've seen many used copies of the Futureland releases for as low as $15 at places such as Yahoo Japan Auction, which was where I obtained one of those releases (a sealed copy of "Rodan").
I have added all of the albums except for Hedorah and Complete Recordings 10 (which are coming soon) to my blog if you or anyone else would like information on them. A link to my blog is included with my profile info if interested. It's nothing special, as it's mainly a database for the Japanese film and television music albums in my collection.
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Ostinato, with all your intelligent commentary here, it's surprising to me that you would list "Godzilla vs. Hedorah" as your favorite Godzilla film score.
I found it an absolute horror when I first heard it in the early 70s, and my opinion has not changed since. However, I would be interested in hearing your defense of it, as otherwise you are clearly a person of taste 
BTW, thanks for all the valuable information you've shared here.
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2021 - 7:31 PM
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By: |
Ostinato
(Member)
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Ostinato, with all your intelligent commentary here, it's surprising to me that you would list "Godzilla vs. Hedorah" as your favorite Godzilla film score.
I found it an absolute horror when I first heard it in the early 70s, and my opinion has not changed since. However, I would be interested in hearing your defense of it, as otherwise you are clearly a person of taste
BTW, thanks for all the valuable information you've shared here.
I first despised the score when I first saw the film around 2005 or so, but my opinion since came around. I now consider all of the scorn the score gets, and even Manabe himself, unjustifiable. I once written something on why I appreciate the score so much (and why I find all of the scorn unjustifiable), but it's lost to time as far as I know (I'll see if I can find it). One example I can remember is one of Hedorah's themes, first heard in Two Giant Monsters in the Factory District (DB-4 M-13), which sounds if it were taunting Godzilla. I also love how Manabe incorporates what are essentially sound effects into some cues, such as Sulfuric Acid Mist (DB-6 M-20), which I always find genuinely terrifying. Anyway, the score is one of the most unusual and avant-garde I have ever heard, and it adds to the film's rather bleak atmosphere.
And yes, you're very much welcome! I do try my best.
UPDATE: Well I'll be damned! I found what I've written regarding "Hedorah". I'll make some revisions to it.
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I guess the lesson to be learned is, all the lucky bastards that have the Futureland CD's better hold onto them.
I sure wish I was one of them.
Haha! Funny that you should mention that, because I've never stopped acquiring the Futureland releases even though I own all six Godzilla boxes. (It also explains the added lengths I had to go to into order to find a copy of Godzilla vs the Mothra (64), which I eventually did at great effort, but surprisingly low price - for a mint copy, OBI included).
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And once again, Mr. Ostinato has demonstrated both his vast AND fine knowledge of Japanese film music. A treasure to this board he is.
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Posted: |
Jan 18, 2021 - 8:10 PM
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By: |
Ostinato
(Member)
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For those interested, here's what I written on Facebook a few years ago (likely in 2015) regarding Manabe's "Godzilla vs. Hedorah". I don't think this is the final version of what I written (though I did find it on Facebook) as it seems to be missing some details I vaguely remembering it having. If anyone wants to read it, here it is:
I'm going to admit, Riichiro Manabe's score to "Godzilla vs. Hedorah" (1971) is not only my favorite Godzilla score, it's also one of my all-time favorite scores.
Granted, it is unusual, but it is by no means bad. In fact, there are several great cues found in the score. First off is the ominous Opening (DB~1 m~1). Then there is the fantastic tune "Return! The Sun", sung by the incredible Keiko Mari along with Honey Nights. The song appears in several variations throughout the film. Seabed Investigation (DB~1 m~3) is also a great cue being moody and mysterious.
Manabe's heroic Godzilla Theme makes its first appearance at the beginning of The Polluted Sea and Godzilla (DB~2 m~8). The cue then takes an ominous turn, complete with a mouth harp to add to its creepy nature. The cue then concludes with a reprise of the Godzilla Theme. It's also worth noting that a portion of the Godzilla Theme is a reworking of material originally from Manabe's score to the Shochiku film "Night and Fog in Japan" (1960), and later used for his score to "The Militarists" (Toho, 1970). In fact, much of the material heard in the former is used in the latter.
Other noteworthy cues are Proliferation (DB~3 m~9), A Factory That Picks Green (DB~5 m~14), Hedorah's Native Place (DB~5 m~18-2), Sulfuric Acid Mist (DB~6 m~20), Anti-Hedorah Masks Now on Sale (DB~6 m~21), Nuclear Fission (DB~6 m~22), Elucidation of the Weakness (DB~6 m~22A), Transforming Pollution Monster (DB~7 m~23), Guitar in the Wilderness I (PS-103), Godzilla's Struggle (DB~9 m~31), Godzilla Flies (DB~11 m~37-2) and Ending (DB~12 m~40).
Continuing on, Sulfuric Acid Mist (DB~6 m~20), which is a variation of Hedorah's first theme, is quite terrifying, even as a stand-alone experience. It accompanies a scene when people are being dissolved alive from the sulfuric acid mist given off by Hedorah's flying form. The theme that will be mainly used for Hedorah's final form, which is first heard in Two Giant Monsters in the Factory District (DB~4 m~13), is quite taunting, as if Hedorah were mocking Godzilla.
Overall, the score is quite dark, especially the cues accompanying the climax battle on Mount Fuji. The film simply would not have worked at all if it weren't for this score. While it's not heard in the film, I love the song "Defeat Hedorah", composed by Koichi Sugiyama and sung by Keiko Mari. Sugiyama would later go on to compose the score to "Godzilla vs. Biollante" (1989).
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Posted: |
Feb 14, 2021 - 12:28 PM
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By: |
Ifukube
(Member)
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I was referring to the King Records vinyl release of the score. They even made transferring the tapes a selling point for their press release, going as far as taking photos of the tapes being transferred. They also had a photo of the tape boxes as well.
I don't own the Ifukube Godzilla Film Music Collection set, but I assume Toho Music used the Perfect Collection album masters.
Yes, chances are Toho Music used the same 2004 Godzilla '54 Perfect Collection masters for the 2014 Godzilla Film Music Collection 2CD, but I actually prefer the audio on the 2014 CD a little more - I think Toho Music's mastering had improved somewhat since 2004.
I have mixed feelings when it comes to the Cinema-kan CDs...I only bought 5 of them so far, but I had got so used to the Toho Music sound quality, and the Cinema-kan CDs sound very different. Overall, I feel the Cinema-kan CDs do sound very clear and nice, but there's not a lot of tone or bass on them. I thought their King Kong Escapes CD was a little too bright as well. Now, the Toho Music CDs were also a mixed bag when it comes to sound quality, but I think they sounded more modern and had a fuller sound.
I would be curious to find out if you prefer the Cinema-kan CDs over the Toho Music CDs regarding the sound quality, or if you like them both?
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Posted: |
Feb 14, 2021 - 1:43 PM
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By: |
Ostinato
(Member)
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Yes, chances are Toho Music used the same 2004 Godzilla '54 Perfect Collection masters for the 2014 Godzilla Film Music Collection 2CD, but I actually prefer the audio on the 2014 CD a little more - I think Toho Music's mastering had improved somewhat since 2004.
It's possible they used a different source, or tweaked the Perfect Collection materials.
I have mixed feelings when it comes to the Cinema-kan CDs...I only bought 5 of them so far, but I had got so used to the Toho Music sound quality, and the Cinema-kan CDs sound very different. Overall, I feel the Cinema-kan CDs do sound very clear and nice, but there's not a lot of tone or bass on them. I thought their King Kong Escapes CD was a little too bright as well. Now, the Toho Music CDs were also a mixed bag when it comes to sound quality, but I think they sounded more modern and had a fuller sound.
I currently have fourty-four of Cinema-kan's releases, and I'm happy with all of them. The sound quality varies with each score due to the condition each respective source is in. They do the best job with restoring the scores they release. I personally feel most are rich in overall sound, including bass (my neighbor next door will attest to that). Again, that depends on the condition a particular score was originally in. They sound amazing on my Bose system as well on my headphones, which pick up bass and other things beautifully. Since I mentioned my next door neighbor, I actually had to stop playing things on the Bose system due to the bass.
I would be curious to find out if you prefer the Cinema-kan CDs over the Toho Music CDs regarding the sound quality, or if you like them both?
Cinema-kan by far. They're even my favorite record label. Granted, I haven't had the chance to listen to everything Toho Music released, so I can't fully comment about them. However, I have had the chance to listen to a lot of them, and I found them hard to listen to due to the issues I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread. The only exceptions are their Kurosawa sets. I even have gone as far as buying some of the Futureland releases Toho Music reissued as I prefer the audio quality of the Futureland releases.
As for Cinema-kan, I was impressed with them after buying my first release from them, the Bloodthirsty Trilogy album. I continued to be more and more impressed with each of their releases I bought. I do have some nitpicks here and there, but they're more than minor. I've become so enthusiastic about them, that I more or less became a living advertisement for them. I genuinely love the label to death.
It's not only for the audio quality of their releases, but their packaging design and booklet contents. I have a major cue number obsession, and like with many Japanese film/television music releases (including those from Toho Music), Cinema-kan's releases pretty much always include the cue numbers. A number of their releases even include photos/scans of the cue sheets, which greatly appeals to me. Labels such as Futureland and Toho Music have also done something similar by including cue sheet transcriptions, which I greatly appreciate. I've been told that some of Toho Music's releases include cue sheet photos, but I'm not completely sure since I never had access to those particular releases.
P.S.: I like your user name, as Ifukube is my favorite composer.
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Posted: |
Feb 15, 2021 - 1:28 PM
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By: |
Ifukube
(Member)
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It's possible they used a different source, or tweaked the Perfect Collection materials.
Yes, that is possible, but for whatever reason, I just prefer the 2014 Godzilla '54 CD...I think it sounds a little better remastered than the '04 version. It's interesting, but that 2014 Akira Ifukube Godzilla Film Music Collection 2CD set was not easy to get...it was never sold via retail by Toho Music, and I believe it was only available for sale at one of the Akira Ifukube tribute concerts. I was lucky enough to acquire a copy, and it turned out to be Toho Music's last CD release from that whole Perfect Collection run.
By the way, besides picking up the full soundtrack CDs, have you also bought the many Godzilla related compilation CDs as well, either from Futureland or from Toho Music? Also, did you know about those 2010-2011 Toho Music/DeAgostini compilation CDs? I picked up all three CD volumes and those are now long gone, never to return.
I currently have fourty-four of Cinema-kan's releases, and I'm happy with all of them. The sound quality varies with each score due to the condition each respective source is in. They do the best job with restoring the scores they release. I personally feel most are rich in overall sound, including bass (my neighbor next door will attest to that). Again, that depends on the condition a particular score was originally in. They sound amazing on my Bose system as well on my headphones, which pick up bass and other things beautifully. Since I mentioned my next door neighbor, I actually had to stop playing things on the Bose system due to the bass.
Wow, you currently own 44 Cinema-kan CDs...that's impressive! I have heard that the Masaru Sato war soundtrack reissue CDs sound terrific...do you like those as well? Well, unfortunately, I don't have access to a big home stereo system right now and do almost all of my CD listening in the car. I have a really good sound system in my car, with rich, bassy speakers, plus I recently picked up an inexpensive portable CD player from Best Buy, which has a rather impressive bass-boost capability, so perhaps I need to revisit and play all of the Cinema-kan CDs again, this time in the new portable CD player with that bass-boost feature...it might really make them sound amazing!
Cinema-kan by far. They're even my favorite record label. Granted, I haven't had the chance to listen to everything Toho Music released, so I can't fully comment about them. However, I have had the chance to listen to a lot of them, and I found them hard to listen to due to the issues I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread. The only exceptions are their Kurosawa sets. I even have gone as far as buying some of the Futureland releases Toho Music reissued as I prefer the audio quality of the Futureland releases.
As for Cinema-kan, I was impressed with them after buying my first release from them, the Bloodthirsty Trilogy album. I continued to be more and more impressed with each of their releases I bought. I do have some nitpicks here and there, but they're more than minor. I've become so enthusiastic about them, that I more or less became a living advertisement for them. I genuinely love the label to death.
It's not only for the audio quality of their releases, but their packaging design and booklet contents. I have a major cue number obsession, and like with many Japanese film/television music releases (including those from Toho Music), Cinema-kan's releases pretty much always include the cue numbers. A number of their releases even include photos/scans of the cue sheets, which greatly appeals to me. Labels such as Futureland and Toho Music have also done something similar by including cue sheet transcriptions, which I greatly appreciate. I've been told that some of Toho Music's releases include cue sheet photos, but I'm not completely sure since I never had access to those particular releases.
P.S.: I like your user name, as Ifukube is my favorite composer.
Yes, I also really like the audio on the Futureland CDs, you can't go wrong with any of them. They do have slightly dated 90's mastering, but I also thought that some of them had more tone than the Cinema-kan CDs I bought. For example, I thought the King Kong Escapes Futureland CD had better tone than the Cinema-kan version. But overall, Toshiba probably had great sources to work with back then, and their mastering was always very consistent and welcome!
I do have to give Cinema-kan a lot of credit for their recent releases though, I wish I could buy them all, but I can't get everything. Their Half Human reissue CD might even be completely sold out now...would you know if this title is now gone for some reason?
I never bought the Toho Music Kurosawa sets, but I bet they sound very good. Yes, Cinema-kan's packaging is exceptional and on par with the Toho Music CDs. I wish I could read Japanese, as I am missing out on a lot of great information in those booklets! Yes, I can understand why the cue number are important to you...I also check them out sometimes as well. I did enjoy looking at the cue numbers in the Godzilla vs Gigan Futureland booklet!
Did you buy all six of the Godzilla 50th Perfect Soundtrack Collection boxed sets? I believe they made 1954 copies of each box, but as far as I know, none of them have sold out yet? Would you know if Cinema-kan has any plans to reissue the Godzilla soundtrack CDs at some point in the near future, or only when the Toho Music boxed sets sell out completely?
Thanks, Akira Ifukube is my favorite Japanese composer!
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Posted: |
Feb 15, 2021 - 3:35 PM
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By: |
Ostinato
(Member)
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Yes, that is possible, but for whatever reason, I just prefer the 2014 Godzilla '54 CD...I think it sounds a little better remastered than the '04 version. It's interesting, but that 2014 Akira Ifukube Godzilla Film Music Collection 2CD set was not easy to get...it was never sold via retail by Toho Music, and I believe it was only available for sale at one of the Akira Ifukube tribute concerts. I was lucky enough to acquire a copy, and it turned out to be Toho Music's last CD release from that whole Perfect Collection run.
By the way, besides picking up the full soundtrack CDs, have you also bought the many Godzilla related compilation CDs as well, either from Futureland or from Toho Music? Also, did you know about those 2010-2011 Toho Music/DeAgostini compilation CDs? I picked up all three CD volumes and those are now long gone, never to return.
Ah! That's why I've always had trouble finding information the Akira Ifukube Godzilla Film Music Collection set. I thought it didn't receive a wide release. I've seen one or two images of it, and at one point a copy for sale, but that's it.
I never bought the Futureland Godzilla compilations, though I often do see the Best Selected Tracks albums for sale at cheap prices. While not technically Godzilla related per se, I do have VAP's Ifukube compilation albums, including the Stage Music albums. In addition, I do have Toho Music's Akira Ifukube Film Music Collection album. I definitely do know about the Toho Music/DeAgostini albums. Since I wasn't collecting film scores at the time, I didn't get them.
Speaking of VAP's Ifukube albums, the cover art for one of them happens to be my avatar here. It's one of my favorite Ifukube albums due to my obsession with Ifukube's Sakuma Dam Trilogy scores.
Wow, you currently own 44 Cinema-kan CDs...that's impressive! I have heard that the Masaru Sato war soundtrack reissue CDs sound terrific...do you like those as well? Well, unfortunately, I don't have access to a big home stereo system right now and do almost all of my CD listening in the car. I have a really good sound system in my car, with rich, bassy speakers, plus I recently picked up an inexpensive portable CD player from Best Buy, which has a rather impressive bass-boost capability, so perhaps I need to revisit and play all of the Cinema-kan CDs again, this time in the new portable CD player with that bass-boost feature...it might really make them sound amazing!
Indeed I have that many! The Sato war scores they released are certainly terrific, with "Battle of Okinawa" being my favorite. I have all of them except for "Battle of the Japan Sea", but I intend to eventually rectify that.
My family had an SUV with pretty damned good speakers. I enjoyed listening to my old CD collection when we were running around. Do you have an optical drive to play CDs on your computer? If so, use VLC when playing them. If you have VLC, or you decide to install it, go to the equalization settings and select the Headphones preset. In addition, select both the compressor and spatializer settings, also found in the equalization settings. The latter two only work with mono recordings, so they have to be turned of whenever you're listening to anything in stereo. I have a pair of JLAB headphones. While not necessarily top-of-the-line, they sound pretty damned good, especially with the VLC settings I mentioned.
I ended up buying a CD player when I received my copy of Three Shells' Akira Ifukube Nikkatsu Film Music Complete Works set back in 2017. I had to buy the CD player since that was the only way I could listen to CDs at the time (all I had at that point was a tablet). Now that I have a Blu-ray player and a laptop with an optical drive, I no longer have to use the CD player anymore with the exception of getting album run times so I can include them with my blog posts. I have to say, playing the albums on the CD player sounds significantly different compared to the TV audio, Bose system and my laptop. My CD player is real bass heavy, so the albums I've listened to on it sounds completely different than how they actually sound.
Yes, I also really like the audio on the Futureland CDs, you can't go wrong with any of them. They do have slightly dated 90's mastering, but I also thought that some of them had more tone than the Cinema-kan CDs I bought. For example, I thought the King Kong Escapes Futureland CD had better tone than the Cinema-kan version. But overall, Toshiba probably had great sources to work with back then, and their mastering was always very consistent and welcome!
I do have to give Cinema-kan a lot of credit for their recent releases though, I wish I could buy them all, but I can't get everything. Their Half Human reissue CD might even be completely sold out now...would you know if this title is now gone for some reason?
I never bought the Toho Music Kurosawa sets, but I bet they sound very good. Yes, Cinema-kan's packaging is exceptional and on par with the Toho Music CDs. I wish I could read Japanese, as I am missing out on a lot of great information in those booklets! Yes, I can understand why the cue number are important to you...I also check them out sometimes as well. I did enjoy looking at the cue numbers in the Godzilla vs Gigan Futureland booklet!
Did you buy all six of the Godzilla 50th Perfect Soundtrack Collection boxed sets? I believe they made 1954 copies of each box, but as far as I know, none of them have sold out yet? Would you know if Cinema-kan has any plans to reissue the Godzilla soundtrack CDs at some point in the near future, or only when the Toho Music boxed sets sell out completely?
Thanks, Akira Ifukube is my favorite Japanese composer!
Until Cinema-kan came along, I always felt The Futureland releases sounded more true to the tapes themselves (as far as I know). I always felt he Cinema-kan release of "King Kong Escapes" always sounded brilliant. Some tape damage was repaired/less apparent and instruments could be heard more distinctly (as with the other related score they reissued). It's been ages since I've heard the Futureland release of the score, so I can't remember any differences with the overall tone between the two. One of the most impressive was their release of "Dogora". I remember that one needing serious restoration work. My jaw completely dropped the second I heard the first track. It sounded so beautiful! I also loved the mini compilation of obscure Ifukube material they included. I have a preference to Ifukube's obscure film work, so that was a treat! Fun fact, I've seen all but one film ("The President and the Shopgirl") included in that bonus compilation.
Yes, Half Human is out-of-print, along with a few other of Cinema-kan releases. I have all but one of their out-out-print albums, with that one album being "Goke". I'm still kicking my ass for letting it slip away!
I don't own the Kurosawa boxes, but I did have the opportunity to listen to them. They are amazing, though they could use new restoration work now that such technology has advanced considerably. Do you have the Google Translate app on your phone? You can use the app to scan Japanese text and have it translated. Just don't use the instant translation, always have it scan the text. Granted, this only works with mobile devices with a camera. I use the app to help with translating portions of the booklet contents from the albums in my collection, so I can provide interesting information (at least for me) when I post an album on my blog.
My cue number obsession has become so great, that the cue numbers included with the track lists is no longer good enough for me. I now want the cue numbers EXACTLY as documented and formatted on the cue sheets. Because of releases including cue sheets or cue sheet transcriptions, I noticed that many of Toho's scores have both DB (Dubbing) and M (Music) numbers, yet CD and LP releases only included the M numbers in the track lists. The full cue number includes both the DB and M number. Take "Kidnapping" from "The Mysterians" for example. Releases always list the cue number as M15T4 in the track list, when it's actually DB-18-4 m-15. Another example is "Rodan Emerges", from "Rodan". Releases always list the cue number as M14T2, when it's really DB-14 m-14-2. Thanks to releases that do have cue sheet or cue sheet transcriptions, I can have the cue numbers for those scores exactly as documented. Wow, see what I mean by obsessed? Oh yeah, I used to have access to the Futureland release of "Gigan". I too loved looking at the cue numbers for it.
I never bought the Perfect Collection boxes. I knew someone who had rips of them. I mentioned earlier in the thread that while I despise illegally obtained rips, it did provide me the chance to listen to them and compare them with past releases. For a sound quality standpoint, I vastly preferred the older releases. Aside from the booklets and classy packaging design, the boxes aren't worth it for me. They are indeed limited to 1,954 copies each. None of them have gone out-of-print and I've read that all six boxes are sitting in Toho warehouses collecting dust.
You're welcome! I'm glad to you you like Ifukube as much as I do! You won't believe the number of Ifukube scored films I've seen! Hell, I've lost count.
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