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 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 8:26 AM   
 By:   TacktheCobbler   (Member)

I wasn’t sure if I should put this in another thread or not. I’m aware that a number of people believe the tapes for Herrmann’s The Man Who Knew Too Much score are lost, especially after it appeared on Intrada’s poll for the next Kickstarter recording (if that ever happens). That said, over at Home Theater Forum, a thread was created about films in need of a stereo remix. When Man Who Knew Too Much was mentioned, Robert Harris made this interesting remark:

We searched for mag tracks on MWKTM(56), and found the original music in the Paramount vaults - saved in error, after destruction was requested.

All were recorded monaurally, with the exception of Storm Clouds Cantata, which was marked as stereo.

That single 1000’ can...

Was empty.


When I asked him if those tapes were still around, he replied thus:

We had them moved to Universal, where they have been preserved.

They were found during our search for original audio on Vertigo.


https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/musicals-and-or-movies-with-notable-soundtracks-that-could-really-use-a-stereo-mix-but-remain-available-in-mono-only.371720/

Of course, he doesn’t mention whether Herrmann’s complete score survives or not, but it does indicate that tapes for Herrmann’s score (minus the Storm Clouds Cantata) survive.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 8:29 AM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

The Man Who Knew Too MANY Tapes Survive.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 8:33 AM   
 By:   moolik   (Member)

Can't even recall any score within the movie...which is strange cause I've seen it multiple times...sure there is the "Storm Cantata" ,which functioned almost like a short "character"in the movie and I won't consider it as part of a soundtrack...
But somehow the score didn't make any impact on me ,compared to Herrmann's other Hitchcock scores...which are of course milestones.

 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 8:48 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

I'm surprised you don't at least remember the Main Title which is very prominent...but not surprised you don't remember the rest. It is one of Herrmann's shortest scores, if not his shortest.

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 8:59 AM   
 By:   Lukas Kendall   (Member)


Paramount had a protocol at the time of saving some, but usually not all, of the music cues from a film—they would often save the ones they thought might be useful for stock music use.

I researched this quite a bit some years ago when I was working on Paramount titles for various labels.

These are the Man Who Knew Too Much cues they marked for keeping:

1AA-4 Prelude 1:59
2EE-1 Nocturne 2:44
2FF-2 Arab Trio #1 (source) 1:29
3AA-1 Arab Trio #2 (source) 2:04
3GG-2 The Chase (With Mallets) 1:04
4AA-1 The Knife 1:04
4BB-1 Louis Bernard's Death 0:27
4CC-1 The Warning 0:24
7BB-3 The Alley 1:16
7CC-3 A Close Call 0:41
8BB-9 The Chapel 1:46
8FF-3 Exit 0:52
P.S.514-1 The Portents (choir & organ) no time listed
9BB-4 Postlude (based on The Portents) 0:57
9BB1-1 The Fight 1:07
9C-10A-4 Arrival & Embassy 3:49
T-1 Symphony Orchestra Tuning no time listed
WC-1 Wild Track of Cymbals no time listed
12BB-2 Embassy Hall 0:50
13DD-6 Finale 0:16

Those would be the cues that Harris remarked as being in mono (which seems right, for the time period) and having been preserved at Universal.

Lukas

 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 9:47 AM   
 By:   LordDalek   (Member)

Bleh, I'd rather see a stereo version of Torn Curtain with Benny's score reinstated. As Yavar said, there's very little misic in TMWTK and what's there isn't too memorable outside of the main title and Storm Clouds.

 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 10:15 AM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

I'd love for the original Herrmann Torn Curtain original recording (however far he got) to be released; we know tapes survive based off special features that have been around since the Universal Hitchcock DVD box. But I also do really like The Man Who Knew Too Much, and would love its surviving cues to be released too -- maybe they could even be a twofer! If the stereo Storm Clouds by Arthur Benjamin which Herrmann conducted anew for the remake could also be found and included, even better...

Yavar

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 10:20 AM   
 By:   TacktheCobbler   (Member)

I'd love for the original Herrmann Torn Curtain original recording (however far he got) to be released; we know tapes survive based off special features that have been around since the Universal Hitchcock DVD box. But I also do really like The Man Who Knew Too Much, and would love its surviving cues to be released too -- maybe they could even be a twofer! If the stereo Storm Clouds by Arthur Benjamin which Herrmann conducted anew for the remake could also be found and included, even better...

Yavar


That’s a splendid idea. We’ll just have to hope one of the labels licenses and remasters them for a potential release, if they aren’t already.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 2:37 PM   
 By:   John Black   (Member)

I also wish that we could see TORN CURTAIN with all of Bennie's tracks restored, and the rest of the film supplemented with Elmer Bernstein's performance of Herrmann's score.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 2:46 PM   
 By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

If Wax Tailor isn't included, I'm not buying it.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 2:56 PM   
 By:   haineshisway   (Member)

I also wish that we could see TORN CURTAIN with all of Bennie's tracks restored, and the rest of the film supplemented with Elmer Bernstein's performance of Herrmann's score.

I believe all the Herrmann tracks were used in the DVD and Blu-ray extras. And yes, the rest could come from the Elmer recording or even the McNeely recording, although on the Elmer at least there doesn't seem to be an end cue - he just repeats the opening, I think.

 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 5:10 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

I also wish that we could see TORN CURTAIN with all of Bennie's tracks restored, and the rest of the film supplemented with Elmer Bernstein's performance of Herrmann's score.

I believe all the Herrmann tracks were used in the DVD and Blu-ray extras. And yes, the rest could come from the Elmer recording or even the McNeely recording, although on the Elmer at least there doesn't seem to be an end cue - he just repeats the opening, I think.


That's it. Elmer reprised the Prelude.

Do we know if Herrmann actually composed some music for any scene after the escape on the bus?

 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 5:12 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

Paramount had a protocol at the time of saving some, but usually not all, of the music cues from a film—they would often save the ones they thought might be useful for stock music use.

I researched this quite a bit some years ago when I was working on Paramount titles for various labels.

These are the Man Who Knew Too Much cues they marked for keeping:

1AA-4 Prelude 1:59
2EE-1 Nocturne 2:44
2FF-2 Arab Trio #1 (source) 1:29
3AA-1 Arab Trio #2 (source) 2:04
3GG-2 The Chase (With Mallets) 1:04
4AA-1 The Knife 1:04
4BB-1 Louis Bernard's Death 0:27
4CC-1 The Warning 0:24
7BB-3 The Alley 1:16
7CC-3 A Close Call 0:41
8BB-9 The Chapel 1:46
8FF-3 Exit 0:52
P.S.514-1 The Portents (choir & organ) no time listed
9BB-4 Postlude (based on The Portents) 0:57
9BB1-1 The Fight 1:07
9C-10A-4 Arrival & Embassy 3:49
T-1 Symphony Orchestra Tuning no time listed
WC-1 Wild Track of Cymbals no time listed
12BB-2 Embassy Hall 0:50
13DD-6 Finale 0:16

Those would be the cues that Harris remarked as being in mono (which seems right, for the time period) and having been preserved at Universal.

Lukas


If these tapes are in good shape, I'm in at nearly any price.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 5:51 PM   
 By:   TerraEpon   (Member)

Still hope for a rerecording....

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 9, 2021 - 6:10 PM   
 By:   Joe Caps   (Member)

When I worked at Pioneet laserdisc, I looked at some of the tracks at Paramount. also there was most of Trouble with Harry.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2021 - 8:54 AM   
 By:   moolik   (Member)

Would be great if the score got a release someday.Kinda strange that with such a topten hit by Doris Day...they didnt release any album back in the days.Anyone knows why?

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2021 - 10:26 AM   
 By:   tiomkinfan   (Member)

Day had an exclusive recording contract with Columbia Records but Paramount had interest in Dot Records. That might be why.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2021 - 10:55 AM   
 By:   jamesluckard   (Member)

Day had an exclusive recording contract with Columbia Records but Paramount had interest in Dot Records. That might be why.

"Whatever Will Be, Will Be (Que Sera, Sera)" was released as a 45 by Columbia, re-recorded with a band and chorus.

The performances of the song in the film weren't suitable for commercial release anyway, the first one is a capella with the little boy and the one at the end is accompanied only by a piano.

I had a copy of the 45 that I bought at Tower Records after I saw the film as a kid.

If she had had more songs in the film, and if they had been backed by a band, I think there would have been a soundtrack album. As it was, the 45 seemed to suffice for Columbia.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2021 - 11:31 AM   
 By:   John Black   (Member)

Maestro William Stromberg has been quoted as considering doing a re-recording of both TMWKTM and ON DANGEROUS GROUND, possibly as a two-fer. I certainly hope that the project comes to fruition.

The poll at Intrada a few years ago certainly demonstrated interest in TMWKTM.

 
 Posted:   Apr 10, 2021 - 11:56 AM   
 By:   Scott McOldsmith   (Member)

Ahhh the old "prelude" and "Nocturne" cue titles. I have 25 "Nocturnes" from Herrmann alone. I should make a playlist.

 
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