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 Posted:   Jun 10, 2021 - 12:21 PM   
 By:   David Mueller   (Member)

It's well known that some composers are too "inspired" by the temp track and copy that instead of doing their own thing. And some composers steal from their own work like Hans Zimmer's Pirates theme that appears in "Gladiator" and (I think) "The Lion King" or John Williams' "Quidditch, Second Year" and "Zam The Assassin And The Chase Through Coruscant" sound exactly the same sometimes. I found an album where the composer steals multiple (in some cases well kown) themes from multiple other composers:

Merlin: Series 1 by Rob Lane
btw it's a really beautiful score and worth a check out but back to topic. The following links are all similarities that I could find and keep in mind: This is all from ONE album that contains music from only THREE episodes. Here we go.


"The Tournament Begins" from Merlin: Series 1 by Rob Lane
https://youtu.be/xeNU3_7CZLE?t=81
has the same cello line like
"Prince Caspian Flees" from The Chronicles Of Narnia 2 by Harry Gregson-Williams
https://youtu.be/Co5RROcMtpQ?list=PL49D101E82A6E4A38&t=140


"Hunith's Letter To Gaius" from Merlin: Series 1 by Rob Lane
https://youtu.be/55jXZLVjq3s?t=23
has the same melody like
"20 Years Ago" from X-Men 3 by John Powell
https://youtu.be/KzV07j5WQ8U?list=PLUmSj40NRinchmQ006NX7Lbt698NojHDK&t=50


"Meeting Arthur / Lady Helen Posessed" from Merlin: Series 1 by Rob Lane
https://youtu.be/BX7GijrdqDs?t=44
has the same melody and arrangement like
"Parade Of The Ewoks" from Star Wars 6 by John Williams
https://youtu.be/aHLGGIFR_F0?list=PLWqHapr7oiFbl32uYnyi098XRv_ujefiL&t=48


"Merlin Lost" from Merlin: Series 1 by Rob Lane
https://youtu.be/HOKFSRmhnJg
has the same melody like
"Buckbeak's Flight" from Harry Potter 3 by John Williams
https://youtu.be/gMoX0M29mlg?list=PL7371E36E3CA34140&t=26


"Guinevere" from Merlin: Series 1 by Rob Lane
https://youtu.be/W34-C_NF10M
has the same melody like
"The Cyberman" from Doctor Who: Series 2 by Murray Gold
https://youtu.be/p_JfzhGMFqE?list=OLAK5uy_lY-GV6Y7NymVdiZPN27aXD1USO1vWN18Y&t=16


The thing isn't even that the themes are the same. The thing that there are presented as reappearing character themes (Guinevere for example). And Rob Lane is so proud of that battle music (The Tournament Begins) that he included it three times on that 46 minute album. Did I mention that it's also the same key everytime?

So do you now about a score wich is throwed together like this?

 
 Posted:   Jun 10, 2021 - 1:06 PM   
 By:   acathla   (Member)

Hans Zimmer’s theme from Point Of No Return sort of makes a comeback in Wonder Woman 84 as the theme for Maxwell Lord. One of his themes from Pearl Harbor also appears in The Last Samurai. And the Pirates theme, I believe first appeared in Drop Zone.

He does it alot but I love it when they reappear big grin

 
 Posted:   Jun 10, 2021 - 1:28 PM   
 By:   Mark R. Y.   (Member)

I had found the Batman Forever (1995) main theme really fresh and thrilling - until I got around to hearing the opening theme to Dune (1984). (Elliot Goldenthal's BF score remains one of the great kick-arse scores however.)

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 10, 2021 - 2:10 PM   
 By:   villagardens553   (Member)

Johnny Mandel could come extremely close to a temp track. A couple of roadsters rollicking along at high speed in a TV film LBJ: The Early Years is scored, practically note for note, with a cue from The Wild Rovers.

More well known, Paul Newman throwing furniture around in his office uses a recognizable replica of a cue from The Lion in Winter.

Goldsmith and Barry were two composers Mandel admired very much.

 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 3:09 AM   
 By:   David Mueller   (Member)

acathla
Hans Zimmer’s theme from Point Of No Return sort of makes a comeback in Wonder Woman 84 as the theme for Maxwell Lord. One of his themes from Pearl Harbor also appears in The Last Samurai. And the Pirates theme, I believe first appeared in Drop Zone.

He does it alot but I love it when they reappear big grin


Do you know in which Drop Zone track the Pirates theme appear?

WW84 is like an "Zimmer Best Of" album... He also reuses "Honer Him" from Gladiator as the Love Theme "Wish We Had More Time".

Hans really sticks to his themes even if it's a complete different film/franchise...


Mark R. Y.
I had found the Batman Forever (1995) main theme really fresh and thrilling - until I got around to hearing the opening theme to Dune (1984). (Elliot Goldenthal's BF score remains one of the great kick-arse scores however.)

Agreed with Batman Forever. The LLL expansion is one of the albums I listen quite frequently...
I listened to the Dune opening theme but the first thing that came to mind was Star Trek 2 & 3 by James Horner for a reason I don't know... But the theme itself is really awesome.


villagardens553
Johnny Mandel could come extremely close to a temp track. A couple of roadsters rollicking along at high speed in a TV film LBJ: The Early Years is scored, practically note for note, with a cue from The Wild Rovers.

More well known, Paul Newman throwing furniture around in his office uses a recognizable replica of a cue from The Lion in Winter.

Goldsmith and Barry were two composers Mandel admired very much.


Shame on me I just barely know Goldsmith's work. I know exact 6 scores, 5 of them are Star Trek films and I discovered John Barry just a few weeks ago so I have no idea... could you provide some links if possible?

 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 4:57 AM   
 By:   acathla   (Member)

acathla
Hans Zimmer’s theme from Point Of No Return sort of makes a comeback in Wonder Woman 84 as the theme for Maxwell Lord. One of his themes from Pearl Harbor also appears in The Last Samurai. And the Pirates theme, I believe first appeared in Drop Zone.

He does it alot but I love it when they reappear big grin


Do you know in which Drop Zone track the Pirates theme appear?

WW84 is like an "Zimmer Best Of" album... He also reuses "Honer Him" from Gladiator as the Love Theme "Wish We Had More Time".

Hans really sticks to his themes even if it's a complete different film/franchise...


Check it this track at around the 2:00 mark wink



They also talk about it in the booklet of this year's expanded release of this OST.

Oh yes, Gladiator appears in that love theme indeed! For a while I also though I heard a part of The Pacific in that love theme. But I have now come to realize that the part I'm thinking of sounds like Band of Brothers, not The Pacific. Which has nothing to do with Zimmer...lol!

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 5:27 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

The thing isn't even that the themes are the same. The thing that there are presented as reappearing character themes (Guinevere for example). And Rob Lane is so proud of that battle music (The Tournament Begins) that he included it three times on that 46 minute album. Did I mention that it's also the same key everytime?

Wow, this is pretty bad.

Granted the Gregson-Williams and Powell stuff sounds equivalent to typical video game action music of that period of time (2008/2009) so I'm not surprised THAT sounds the same - but what's weird is Prince Caspian came out at the same time as Merlin, so I'm wondering... is there some underpaid ghostwriter who is just double-booking scoring projects and cranking out the same material but slightly altered and not telling either party?

If I was producing Merlin and heard this stuff, I'd confront Lane about it while being prepared to fire him on the spot if the explanation wasn't good enough. It's not only low quality but it's straight up plagiarism in most places. That's not only a legal liability for the production but a creative liability for the film/series as well.

 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 7:33 PM   
 By:   Mr. Jack   (Member)





Maybe the only example ever of a composer getting his hand caught in the proverbial cookie jar and successfully sued for plagiarism (and every home video version of 300 since then has had a sticker pointing out a website where you can investigate the music's original origins!).

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 8:04 PM   
 By:   Paul MacLean   (Member)

Spielberg always loved Delerue...

https://youtu.be/9G_fffsYHMI?t=82

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NWa7GnVnJc

That said, despite following the structure of the Delerue piece, Williams' cue is very much his own.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 8:24 PM   
 By:   Paul MacLean   (Member)


Shame on me I just barely know Goldsmith's work. I know exact 6 scores, 5 of them are Star Trek films and I discovered John Barry just a few weeks ago so I have no idea... could you provide some links if possible?


Essential Goldsmith:
A Patch of Blue
The Sand Pebbles
The Blue Max
Planet of the Apes
Patton
Chinatown
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
The Final Conflict
First Blood
Legend
Hoosiers
Total Recall
Basic Instinct
The 13th Warrior


Essential Barry:
His James Bond scores
The Ipcress File
The Lion in Winter
The Last Valley
King Kong (1976)
Body Heat
Howard The Duck
Dances With Wolves

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 11, 2021 - 9:03 PM   
 By:   Jurassic T. Park   (Member)

Spielberg always loved Delerue...

That said, despite following the structure of the Delerue piece, Williams' cue is very much his own.


Yeah, that's the thing is thins is totally ok. If someone is inspired to make their own piece, break down the elements of the original and make them their own, that's creative art.

I actually noticed this with Breakfast At Tiffany's - I was skimming and could hear similarities to E.T. at 2:30:
https://youtu.be/rGia-MWwti4?t=150



The bed of undulating harp bisbigliando and glissandi, the solo woodwind, the trilled strings - it sounded just like much of the atmosphere in E.T., especially this part in particular at 4:44:
https://youtu.be/fUOfVrDNOdQ?t=284



I double-checked to see that Williams had worked with Mancini so he could have listened to or studied this score.

But either way, whether Williams did or not, he is using the concept of a bed of harps and strings in his own unique way, which is exactly what composers should do.

Everything has been "done" already, which is why we study history and the mechanics of things to learn how we can take those principles and apply them to our own work.

 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 11:51 AM   
 By:   David Mueller   (Member)

The thing isn't even that the themes are the same. The thing that there are presented as reappearing character themes (Guinevere for example). And Rob Lane is so proud of that battle music (The Tournament Begins) that he included it three times on that 46 minute album. Did I mention that it's also the same key everytime?

Wow, this is pretty bad.

Granted the Gregson-Williams and Powell stuff sounds equivalent to typical video game action music of that period of time (2008/2009) so I'm not surprised THAT sounds the same - but what's weird is Prince Caspian came out at the same time as Merlin, so I'm wondering... is there some underpaid ghostwriter who is just double-booking scoring projects and cranking out the same material but slightly altered and not telling either party?

If I was producing Merlin and heard this stuff, I'd confront Lane about it while being prepared to fire him on the spot if the explanation wasn't good enough. It's not only low quality but it's straight up plagiarism in most places. That's not only a legal liability for the production but a creative liability for the film/series as well.


Maybe the producers asked Rob Lane to stop it because the following Albums are not full of other composers work, but I couldn't find something on this in the net.
But see it this way: If you don't know what to hear next, listen to this. It's Harry potter, SW, X-Men & Doctor Who combined smile

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 12:39 PM   
 By:   MikeyKW   (Member)

The opening of the IMAX film Amazon sounds remarkably like the beginning of Waterworld to me.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 2:05 PM   
 By:   slint   (Member)

Some Italian composers have copied themes from American/British films but I think this is good fun:

Riz Ortolani - Old Shatterhand - 1964
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wuv8re-hI4

Stelvio Cipriani - L'Uomo Più Velenoso Del Cobra - 1971
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJjrOdvQCxM

Angelo Francesco Lavagnino - Totò d'Arabia - 1965
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03K7tcLWfYo

Alessandro Alessandroni - Sangue di Sbarro - 1976
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpIKPPQ3VI0

 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 3:31 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

Spielberg always loved Delerue...

https://youtu.be/9G_fffsYHMI?t=82

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NWa7GnVnJc

That said, despite following the structure of the Delerue piece, Williams' cue is very much his own.


Mr. Williams "stealing" from the saccharine Dull-a-roo? Preposterous, bordering on insane.

 
 Posted:   Jun 12, 2021 - 3:52 PM   
 By:   darthbrett   (Member)

Was Total Recall temp-tracked with Conan? I always thought the Conan (the Barbarian) theme was heavily borrowed from and inspired Total Recall's title/main theme. I'm sure this has been talked about many times before on here, but I don't think I have ever heard.

https://youtu.be/5ZY2mRG5mzg?t=67
https://youtu.be/tvHgxTubFSQ?t=2


Also, I know Oliver Nelson quoted his own theme from the Columbo episode "The Greenhouse Jungle' a year or so later in a Six Million Dollar Man episode.


https://youtu.be/V-GmO_bkcv8?t=606
https://youtu.be/qQA_A5gBWrs?list=PLXCALJAH2Zp6sSU6oBKzXIrTSamDvhKoV&t=317

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 13, 2021 - 2:12 AM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

I’ve said this before but John Barry’s Love Among the Ruins from 1975 seems to have “influenced” smile the second part of Carol-Anne’s Theme from Jerry Goldsmith’s Poltergeist.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 13, 2021 - 7:08 PM   
 By:   connorb93   (Member)

Maybe not a theft but a probably temp track "inspiration"...

The motif for the villains in Total Recall and the raptors in Jurassic Park is almost the exact same four notes

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 8:25 AM   
 By:   Paul MacLean   (Member)


Mr. Williams "stealing" from the saccharine Dull-a-roo? Preposterous, bordering on insane.


I never said he "stole" anything. But it is clear -- if you listen to the examples I posted -- that he closely followed the temp.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 14, 2021 - 2:18 PM   
 By:   BrendonKelly   (Member)

Alan Parker’s score for the BBC TV drama ‘Rhodes’ steals and lifts wholesale from Wyatt Earp.

 
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