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Yes, well, I read (maybe here) that he wasn't happy with some of the "Sugarland" cue readings.
I've never noticed any mention of that. And The Rare Breed/Story of a Woman? Also presumably nixed because of unhappiness with the performance? Seems odd.
I'd certainly be happy for a release of Williams's Gilligan's Island work though. You make it sound quite appealing indeed!
Yavar
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Posted: |
Aug 16, 2022 - 9:59 AM
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By: |
Broughtfan
(Member)
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Oh, me, too!
It (the "Travels score) has quite a lot of dimension. And what are we talking about, here? Fewer than twenty minutes of music recorded with a seventeen-piece ensemble. With alternate takes and what not you could probably bump this up to twenty-five, maybe thirty minutes. Also, since, at this point, Schwartz/Wyle hadn't yet written the famous shanty-like MT, probably expensive to license, you could do an all-JW disk of "Gilligan's Travels" music (because, in a sense, they, GT and GI, though one begat the other, are separate entities). You might remember the Batman feature was released on DVD long before the series was (though I can't remember the reason for this). So, if CBS need not be involved you have the estates of Phil Silvers, Sherwood Schwartz (and whatever company that presently owns UA) with whom to deal (and, as pointed out earlier, JW would have a say as well).
You know, John Williams has probably never watched an episode of GI (his involvement with the franchise beginning/ending with the scoring of the pilot), but still might have some idea as to how his music was used once the series went into production (and the BMI received is the gift that keeps on giving!) A copy of his score (not the original manuscript) is at UCLA, but, as I mentioned earlier, the tracks may have been re-recorded by Gilbert (or CBS may have licensed the use of the music from UA). Now that I write this it does sound complicated! Haha!
The score has a lot of dimension (at times quirky, at times noble, at times suspenseful). Would be good to see it made available (though no one here should be holding his/her breath!)
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Of course, IMDb can’t always be trusted. For example, Arthur Morton didn’t have anything at all to do with the 20 episode first season of Black Saddle, only the 24 episode second season. He did compose a new series-specific music library to be tracked throughout, but as for the main theme it was entirely composed by Jerry Goldsmith for season 1 before the two of them began their professional association. All Morton did for season 2 was make a new arrangement of it for the end titles. This arrangement was then used as the basis for the extended version of the theme on a 1962 Four Star LP conducted by Herschel Burke Gilbert, on which the theme was somewhat inaccurately credited to both Goldsmith and Morton. The whole history of the theme is told here:
https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/8223919-gold-nugget-8-black-saddle-history-of-a-theme-1958-2020
Incidentally, I’m sure that the original Goldsmith version of the theme was entirely orchestrated by him (the instrumentation is very simple).
Yavar
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A question.
If I dictate a story and someone writes it down for me, and punctuates it for me, did I write it or did they?
If I dictate a story and I ask the other person to edit it to tighten it up a bit, did I write it or did they?
Here's where I'm going with this.
Is there a difference between “having my music orchestrated” and “using an orchestrator”?
Let me put that another way:
If I give detailed and specific orchestration instructions, but use an orchestrator to write it out, did I orchestrate my music (but use an orchestrator), or did the orchestrator orchestrate my music?
Put yet another way:
Is orchestration the act of writing out the full score, or the act of deciding what the orchestration is going to be?
If it's the latter, is it valid to say Goldsmith orchestrated his scores in his instructions, but used an orchestrator to realise the full orchestra score?
This is a genuine question from someone who doesn't know.
Cheers
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...If I give detailed and specific orchestration instructions, but use an orchestrator to write it out, did I orchestrate my music (but use an orchestrator), or did the orchestrator orchestrate my music?
...
Is orchestration the act of writing out the full score, or the act of deciding what the orchestration is going to be?
Put another way, is an orchestrator a copyist, skillfully and carefully distributing the composer's music, as written, to each musician, allowing the composer time to focus on other things, or is an orchestrator, through decision making, artistically affecting the final sound of the piece?
Is that the heart of the question?
My guess is that both fall under the heading, and how much of each applies depends upon the how composer works, but that's based on memories of anecdotal stuff, not actually looking into it, which I'm sure some here have done.
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Friedhofer was one of the greatest, and still I think his influence as an orchestrator varied greatly, especially depending on which composer he was working with. Obviously Erich Wolfgang Korngold had, pre-Hollywood, orchestrated most if not all of his work. He wrote about how it was a strange adjustment for him, initially, to work with an orchestrator at all as a matter of time necessity (though he and Friedhofer became close indeed, and he occasionally allowed Friedhofer some latitude on things).
But my impression is that Friedhofer often did a lot more work when it came to his Max Steiner scores... not a surprise when Steiner would be putting out a hefty number of scores every year, compared to Korngold's one or two.
On the other hand, Alfred Newman was also fairly prolific, but I question how much an orchestrator could color his style of writing (particularly for strings) -- I listen to a Powell-orchestrated Newman score and a Friedhofer-orchestrated Newman score and they sound pretty close, to me. (Exceptions are things like The Mark of Zorro where Friedhofer actually substantially contributed to the composition itself, uncredited.)
Yavar
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There are two types of composers, those who (usually studied composition) and usually know how to write for various instruments, and those who rely on orchestrators to flesh out the melodies or harmonies they come up with.
Composers like Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams usually worked with orchestrators for time reasons (and because it's the "normal" way in Hollywood to do things). I mean, they penciled in their compositions on note paper with pencil in their handwriting, often in their "short hand" writing. So the orchestrator sorts it all out and makes actually workable music sheets of of that. They also function like an editor (catching obvious "spelling mistakes" etc. or double checking things).
But movies are done under enormous time pressure, so it also happens that composer hand over rough sheets with some notes that the orchestrator then fleshes out. James Horner did this a few times, even though Horner was obviously perfectly capable of orchestrating himself.
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I've just arrived at "Deep Rising" and I'm amazed at the number of orchestrators, was there more pressure in post-production than usual (and we know Jerry was good under pressure)
E-Ride is such a great cue, demo material for a good sound system
Orchestrators are:
Alexander Courage
Vince Bartold
Julia Eidsvoog
Evan Nicholas Vidar
never read the last three names elswere
I love DEEP RISING, what a great score. It's one of my favorite scores from the latter part of his career.
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Orchestation is a partnership with the composer, IMO. It makes a decided difference in how a score sounds.
However, many composers provide very specific instructions to their orchestrators, to the extent the orchestrator is a glorified copyist. Angela Morley actually felt that her job should not be called "orchestration" but rather "score preparation".
Different composers also had or have different ways of working.
Jerry Goldsmith imparted very specific intentions to the orchestrator. Elmer Bernstein on the other hand invited his orchestrators to embellish things.
An orchestrator credit does not necessarily mean the orchestrator worked on every single cue in the score. John David Ernest is the credited orchestrator for Altered States, but some cues -- like the "Ape Man" -- were written-out in full score by John Corigliano himself.
Sometimes a composer will be very specific about most of the orchestral details but leave others to the orchestrator -- John Barry's sketches provided his intentions for strings and brass, but he gave Nic Raine freedom in regard to woodwind blends.
Michael Kamen orchestrated his own scores when he had time, made detailed sketches when there was less time, and called on orchestrators to be more creative when there was very little time.
Jerry Fielding was a slow writer and his scores were often finished by Lennie Niehaus and Grieg McRitchie, who would adapt Fielding's already-written cues for the remaining scenes.
Even Gustav Mahler wrote in sketch form, and his wife Alma (also a trained composer) copied his shorthand sketches into the full score.
Questioned about using an orchestrator when working in Hollywood, Aaron Copland said "If I hand-wright a letter or dictate it to my secretary, who has actually written the letter?"
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MAGIC might have been "self orchestrated," had JG not "gotten lonely" (I think is the way he put it), and brought in someone (Morton, I think).
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Posted: |
Aug 23, 2022 - 4:04 AM
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By: |
JamesFitz
(Member)
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Orchestation is a partnership with the composer, IMO. It makes a decided difference in how a score sounds.
However, many composers provide very specific instructions to their orchestrators, to the extent the orchestrator is a glorified copyist. Angela Morley actually felt that her job should not be called "orchestration" but rather "score preparation".
Different composers also had or have different ways of working.
Jerry Goldsmith imparted very specific intentions to the orchestrator. Elmer Bernstein on the other hand invited his orchestrators to embellish things.
An orchestrator credit does not necessarily mean the orchestrator worked on every single cue in the score. John David Ernest is the credited orchestrator for Altered States, but some cues -- like the "Ape Man" -- were written-out in full score by John Corigliano himself.
Sometimes a composer will be very specific about most of the orchestral details but leave others to the orchestrator -- John Barry's sketches provided his intentions for strings and brass, but he gave Nic Raine freedom in regard to woodwind blends.
Michael Kamen orchestrated his own scores when he had time, made detailed sketches when there was less time, and called on orchestrators to be more creative when there was very little time.
Jerry Fielding was a slow writer and his scores were often finished by Lennie Niehaus and Grieg McRitchie, who would adapt Fielding's already-written cues for the remaining scenes.
Even Gustav Mahler wrote in sketch form, and his wife Alma (also a trained composer) copied his shorthand sketches into the full score.
Questioned about using an orchestrator when working in Hollywood, Aaron Copland said "If I hand-wright a letter or dictate it to my secretary, who has actually written the letter?"
Maurice Jarre tended to fully orchestrate his percussion...but was rather more vague re the rest of the orchestra...but no matter which orchestrator he used, Chris Palmer, Nic Raine, Patrick Russ etc.. he used, his music was always distinctly "Maurice".
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Orchestation is a partnership with the composer, IMO. It makes a decided difference in how a score sounds.
However, many composers provide very specific instructions to their orchestrators, to the extent the orchestrator is a glorified copyist. Angela Morley actually felt that her job should not be called "orchestration" but rather "score preparation".
That's just it, the job can have a number of meanings. In cases of Jerry Goldsmith or John Williams, theses composer knew what they wanted, it's not as if the orchestrator had room to assign lines or notes to instruments as they see fit. They just bring the jotted, penciled and scribbled score into something performers can actually perform. I have seen original sketches from Jerry Goldsmith scores, there is not any "wiggle room" for the orchestrator to become creative with what is there.
I think "Orchestrator" is a wiggle term in Hollywood though, as that can mean anything from preparing the finished score to fleshing out the instrumentation of a score that is only provided with a few lines. IIRC, Fred Karlin's book ON THE TRACK had some interesting examples of how some composer sketches look like.
I don't know how the various composers work with their orchestrators, but in case of Jerry Goldsmith, there is not much too it. Goldsmith had a great working relationship with Arthur Morton (in case of THE OMEN, for example, Goldsmith said something like 65% of the choral writing was arranged by Arthur Morton and that he opened it up in a way that sounded much better than the way Goldsmith had written it.) and Alexander Courage, but the instrumentation in these scores is Jerry Goldsmith's, not matter who was the orchestrator on these scores.
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