 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's also on HBO Max presently, if you want to watch it there.
I saw it the other week. It's really good! There are long sojourns into the history of music playing along with film live, and Steiner’s family history in Vienna, etc, but it all pays off. Later it gets into how after A Summer Place, Merian C. Cooper suddenly saw the value of releasing recordings of movie themes, thus starting the soundtrack album market and leading directly to the creation of the FSM message board.
I know that Steiner, Newman, Tiomkin, Waxman, and later Korngold, Rózsa, and sometimes Herrmann are all generally referred to as the founding fathers of film music, but whenever there’s a documentary or any interview about any of them, it’s always claimed that whomever is being talked about is THE guy who invented modern film music as we know it.
In reality, it seems like there were all these brilliant musicians from all over the world who came to Hollywood because studio moguls saw what were doing in concert halls or on Broadway or in various other musical venues and wanted to see what they could do in film. They were all kind of peeking over each others shoulders and taking influence from one another at the same time, in. I wish these stories would recognize that instead of treating ONE GUY like he was Film Score Jesus.
I mean, I guess Steiner has as strong a claim to that distinction as anyone, but he didn't do it in a vacuum, you know?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Dec 1, 2022 - 9:56 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Tom Servo
(Member)
|
It's also on HBO Max presently, if you want to watch it there.
I saw it the other week. It's really good! There are long sojourns into the history of music playing along with film live, and Steiner’s family history in Vienna, etc, but it all pays off. Later it gets into how after A Summer Place, Merian C. Cooper suddenly saw the value of releasing recordings of movie themes, thus starting the soundtrack album market and leading directly to the creation of the FSM message board.
I know that Steiner, Newman, Tiomkin, Waxman, and later Korngold, Rózsa, and sometimes Herrmann are all generally referred to as the founding fathers of film music, but whenever there’s a documentary or any interview about any of them, it’s always claimed that whomever is being talked about is THE guy who invented modern film music as we know it.
In reality, it seems like there were all these brilliant musicians from all over the world who came to Hollywood because studio moguls saw what were doing in concert halls or on Broadway or in various other musical venues and wanted to see what they could do in film. They were all kind of peeking over each others shoulders and taking influence from one another at the same time, in. I wish these stories would recognize that instead of treating ONE GUY like he was Film Score Jesus.
I mean, I guess Steiner has as strong a claim to that distinction as anyone, but he didn't do it in a vacuum, you know?
It's certainly made clear in this documentary the amazing level of musical talent and craftsmanship that migrated to Hollywood in the early days. That event can never be duplicated so we just have to celebrate their music and legacy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Dec 1, 2022 - 10:47 PM
|
|
|
|
By: |
joan hue
(Member)
|
Last year we had another FSM thread about this documentary, and I posted the statements below about this film.
I wish everyone had HBO Max and could watch this documentary. It is excellent. At least it can be ordered.
Even those youngers who think movie scores began in the 90’s should see this for several reasons.
First of all, Steiner comes through as laying the core foundation for music synched to movies. This show really delves into how he composed the first scores that indelibly enhanced and enriched movies. Of course, this led to studios hiring a lot of composers to score movies.
The show points out that Steiner laid the template for Star Wars and John Williams.
Han Zimmer received the Vienna Max Steiner Composer Award in 2018, and he is thanked in the end credits.
Ahem, this documentary is NOT just for oldies.
Our own Ray Faiola is mentioned in this show and acknowledged in the end credits.
We hear often from John Morgan and William Stromberg, and we see Stromberg conducting. You will also hear from Jon Burlingame, Richard Kraft, Friedhofer in tapes, Steve C. Smith who wrote Steiner’s current biography and many others.
Of course, some of his key scores are dissected. (Smith's biography really dissects his scores more completely.) Also, the show acknowledges how well he kept up with the changing times by composing the huge hit in 1960 called A Summer Place. Writing music from King Kong to A Summer Place is certainly amazing.
I was well-educated during these two hours of viewing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know that Steiner, Newman, Tiomkin, Waxman, and later Korngold, Rózsa, and sometimes Herrmann are all generally referred to as the founding fathers of film music, but whenever there’s a documentary or any interview about any of them, it’s always claimed that whomever is being talked about is THE guy who invented modern film music as we know it.
In reality, it seems like there were all these brilliant musicians from all over the world who came to Hollywood because studio moguls saw what were doing in concert halls or on Broadway or in various other musical venues and wanted to see what they could do in film. They were all kind of peeking over each others shoulders and taking influence from one another at the same time, in. I wish these stories would recognize that instead of treating ONE GUY like he was Film Score Jesus.
I mean, I guess Steiner has as strong a claim to that distinction as anyone, but he didn't do it in a vacuum, you know?
This is exactly what I have a problem with; thanks for calling it out! This narrative about Steiner "inventing" (or being "the father of") film music as we know it is just utterly constructed for storytelling convenience, whether in a book or a film. And it drives me crazy. It completely is Hollywood-centric, and ABSOLUTELY ERASES all of Steiner's many predecessors who composed long-form original orchestral film music before him, whether they were Russian (Dmitri Shostakovich and others), Italian (Pietro Mascagni), Spanish (Ernesto Halffter), German (Gottfried Huppertz), Finnish (Armas Järnefelt), or French (Florent Schmitt, Arthur Honegger... or heck Camille Saint-Saens all the way back in 1908 with the first substantial original music written for film!)
Hell, it even erases *Hollywood* composers specializing in original long form orchestral film music before Steiner, like Mortimer Wilson (The Mark of Zorro, The Thief of Bagdad, Don Q Son of Zorro, The Black Pirate, The Good-Bye Kiss, Night Watch) or J.S. Zamecnik (Wings, and over 20 other scores according to IMDb) or even Joseph Carl Breil (almost a dozen scores including the 1925 Phantom of the Opera... and Birth of a Nation, ugh). We just had a nice healthy thread about Mortimer Wilson recently thanks to a brand new complete recording of one of his scores, and many people were surprised to find out he existed, and had written an excellent Thief of Bagdad score more than a decade and a half before the famous Miklos Rozsa-scored one:
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=1&threadID=146603&archive=0
Max Steiner did not invent film music. He did not invent timing original orchestral music to picture. He did not invent applying a leitmotivic approach to film (seriously have these people making these claims REALLY never seen Metropolis at least, with Gottfried Huppertz's incredible original score??)
These claims, no matter who makes them, are either frustratingly ignorant... or they are lies told to suit a narrative. Seems harsh? Well so is erasing the wealth of great film music composed before Max Steiner ever came on the film scene.
And I'll keep beating this drum as long as people keep singing that tired cliche "Max Steiner invented original film music and it wouldn't exist without him" song. King Kong's great achievement was being attached to the first blockbuster film. It didn't invent anything, and frankly (in my opinion) in musical and dramatic terms it is far less sophisticated and far inferior to the preceding long-form film music composed by Huppertz and so many others.
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Acclaim him all you want, as long as you don’t CREDIT him with inventing film music, which is absolutely what I’ve seen over and over.
Also, some composers like Shostakovich and Huppertz started in the silent era but successfully transitioned into the sound era… one of the former’s best early scores (which debuted the theremin in film music!) literally started as a silent film and wound up as a sound film:
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That also preceded Steiner — the score I literally just posted an image of, Odna, features some creative use of diegetic vs. non-diegetic music. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn it was the first score to do so since it was Shostakovich, an endlessly more inventive composer than Steiner. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if something else even preceded it, and I’m not going to make an assertion about what’s first without knowing for damn sure. 
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
https://dianafriedberg.com/product/max-steiner-feature-documentary-dvd/
"Max Steiner Maestro of Movie Music feature documentary by Diana Friedberg, ACE tells the story of one man who more than any other invented the art of film scoring in Hollywood."
Well at least there's a qualifying "in Hollywood" there, but it still erases Hollywood composers specializing in film music like Mortimer Wilson who came before. And I don't know what "more than any other" is supposed to mean, when there are literally multiple examples of composers writing original, long-form, film music... *in Hollywood*, before him. It's a meaningless qualification that just tries to "fudge" things, and I really suspect whoever wrote that knew it was misleading.
Argue Steiner *popularized* long-form original orchestral film scores in Hollywood with King Kong, and you'd have a good argument. But that is NOT the claim that keeps getting repeated.
https://www.torontofilmmagazine.com/post/watch-max-steiner-maestro-of-movie-music
"This is the story of the man who created a vital new art form once the movies found their voice... His legacy lives on today through the many composers who followed in his footsteps."
I'll put it bluntly: knowing or unknowing, THESE ARE OUTRIGHT FALSEHOODS. The second one particularly galls me because it talks about "legacy"...well what about the legacy of the many composers of original film music *in whose footsteps Max Steiner followed*? Their legacies are not merely forgotten but actively erased with statements like these. Is someone going to tell me Steiner created his scores in a vaccuum and was wholly unfamiliar with Gottfried Huppertz or any other composers of original film music who preceded him? Even if that were true, he is getting credit for something he simply did not do, no matter how you slice it.
Good grief, it's on the freaking poster for the film:
"invented a new art form" -- take that out and it's fine, leave it in and you're rewriting history to fit your own storytelling (or marketing) needs. 
I've worked in marketing (in the classical music world) and I've always taken care to not let my enthusiasm and desire to sell something push me over the edge into making claims about it which aren't factually true.
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I mean, I think Steiner was indisputably an excellent composer, and certainly a major contributor in elevating the artform greatly.
At one point the documentary runs a memo from Jack Warner to the Warner Bros. music department basically saying, "I love what Steiner is doing -- everyone else should look at his music and follow his lead." I have no doubt that his music greatly influenced others of the time, just as many composers in the 70s and 80s were instructed to try to take influence from Star Wars.
But in the 30s and 40s, I feel like evolution of film music had many fathers, and sometimes it might have been as simple as a studio mogul saying, "I like that -- that's what I want -- do more of that." Steiner was there for all of that and was a giant of his time, without question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
