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 Posted:   Jan 14, 2023 - 11:49 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

This was spurred by posts my FSM friend Steven Lloyd made in both my 2020 and 2023 polls of what folks want Varese to Deluxify next:
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=140019&forumID=1&archive=0
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=150109&forumID=1&archive=0

Having rewatched the entire film and carefully noting down timestamps, here (at minimum -- who knows about unreleased alternates or unused cues?) is what could be added to make The Ballad of Cable Hogue: The Deluxe Edition... score cues are bolded. Thanks to Steven for providing the official cue titles for both the unreleased score and source music!

1. Main Title (film version with alternate Richard Gillis vocal take of Goldsmith's "Tomorrow Is the Song I Sing")

2. "Saloon #1" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (21 seconds in the film, Blu-ray timestamp: 23:53-24:11)
(I don't hear a blend, but a distinct fade out of the source cue before the score cue enters four seconds later...)

3. "Butterfly Mornings #1", Jerry Goldsmith arranging the tune by Richard Gillis (19 seconds, 24:15-24:34)
4. "Butterfly Mornings #2", Jerry Goldsmith arranging the tune by Richard Gillis (47 seconds, 25:35-26:23)
(Both of these two cues are somewhat similar to "Hogue and Hildy" on the Varese album.)

5. "Saloon #2" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (50 seconds, 28:18-29:08)
6. "Saloon in G" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (45 seconds, 31:30-32:15)

7. "Tomorrow Is the Song I Sing" (Cable and Cushing) composed by Jerry Goldsmith (15 seconds, 35:40-35:55)

8. "Saloon #3" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (1:26 in film, 35:55-37:21, ending with transition to Cable's bath)

9. "Sweet Betsy from Pike" arr. Morton, including an original 18 second bridge? (1:11 in film, 37:21-38:32, ending with "My name is Hildy.")

10. "Saloon #2" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (1:00 in film, 38:38-39:38, ending with "Undo me.")

11. "Saloon #4" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (1:15 in film, 39:43-40:58, ending with "If you ever need any help, uh...")

12. "Saloon #1" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (1:46 in film, 41:03-42:49, with the "Shall We Gather at the River?" hymn overlapping near the end, which then takes over as the saloon source stops, and later on mashes up against the original Goldsmith cue "Hasty Exit")

13. "Hasty Exit" (Part 2) with Jerry Goldsmith accompanying a melody by Richard Gillis (34 seconds including David Warner singing "Wait for Me, Sunrise", overlapping with the end of "Hasty Exit" as heard on CD, 46:21-46:55 in film; to me this sounds like an entirely separate cue crossfaded over the end of the previous one, which doesn't have the extended trailing off that it does on album)

14. "Saloon #3" source cue composed by Arthur Morton (47:19-48:28, is initially overlapped by Cable and Josh singing "I Can't Go Back to Memphis Any More", apparently an obscure verse of "She'll Be Comin' Round the Mountain When She Comes")

15. "Hogan's Saloon Song" ("Rosie"?) Part 1 (2:44, 48:30-51:14
16. "Hogan's Saloon Song" ("Rosie"?) Part 2 (0:29, 51:36-52:05, overlaps with beginning Richard Gillis's performance of "Wait for Me, Sunrise")

17. "The Guest" Part 1 (opening 2:46, from 1:07:28-1:10:13 in the film is unreleased, although Part 1 of the cue continues to 1:10:53, through the opening 46 seconds of the album track "The Guest", before switching over to the second part of the cue which begins in the film at 1:11:02, and eventually transitions into the "Butterfly Mornin's" duet between Hildy and Cable, which was released on the album albeit with sound effects included and a rather awkward fadeout...odd because the actors are clearly lip-syncing to a pre-record!)

18. "Joshua's Hymn" composed by Jerry Goldsmith (0:37 in film including a brief pause, 1:18:57-1:19:34)
19. "Vengeance Seeking Husband" composed by Jerry Goldsmith (1:25 in film, 1:19:53-1:21:18)
As Steven wrote in the 2023 thread linked above: Josh begging Cable's aid and his pursuer's appearance are backed by pump-organ material similar to "A Soothing Hand" and underscore related to "The Rattlesnakes".

20. "Butterfly Mornin's" Reprise (0:52, 1:44:46-1:45:38 in the film, as Cable recalls his time with Hildy in between the album's "Waiting" and "Hildy Returns" -- this may be a straight repurposing of the music recorded for the earlier sequence between Cable and Hildy)

By the way, I was surprised to discover that Goldsmith's final touching score cue, "The Eulogy", actually doesn't play in the film! His eulogy goes unscored, and with David Warner providing it... it works just fine. But I'd love to see a score restore adding his music back into the sequence.

Steven also wrote this about the End Title: Interestingly, these logs conclude with "Tomorrow Is the Song I Sing" for the end title, instead of the ultimate choice of Gillis' "Wait for Me, Sunrise" -- suggesting that the substitution was quite a late decision. Of further interest, the CD's alternate-ending "Tomorrow" rendition runs 1:54, while this log reports 2:05 -- perhaps a significantly different take from the alternate chosen for the CD. (However, I find this detail SO interesting because these logs, in longhand, were dated 3-27-70... although it happens that lab leader on surviving original celluloid prints of the picture state that the Technicolor printing matrices were completed on March 9 -- with the "Wait for Me, Sunrise" ending already in place.)

As I tally it up that looks like ~6:43 of unreleased Goldsmith, NOT counting the Main Title alternate vocal, the Arthur Morton source music (probably longer as recorded than in film anyway), or the Butterfly Mornin's vocal reprise. And thanks to DavidCorkum below in this very thread, we've also learned that Richard Gillis made a unique single recording of both Goldsmith's "Tomorrow Is the Song I Sing" (sans the film's instrumental sections) and his own "Butterfly Mornin's", conducted and arranged by Don Costa. It'd be great if these unique covers could be included on a future Deluxe Edition CD as well.

I personally think there's more than enough reason to justify a Deluxe Edition expansion of Varese's 37 minute original album, don't you? For anyone inclined to vote for one to happen, weigh in at the 2023 poll thread here!
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=150109&forumID=1&archive=0

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Jan 15, 2023 - 12:18 AM   
 By:   Bill Carson, Earl of Poncey   (Member)

Thanks to this, im now going to be humming "tomorrow is the song i sing....yesterday dont mean a thing" all bloody day.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 15, 2023 - 1:55 AM   
 By:   Prince Damian   (Member)

Thanks to this, im now going to be humming "tomorrow is the song i sing....yesterday dont mean a thing" all bloody day.


Makes a change from ' twang, twang, boing, boing. smile

 
 Posted:   Jan 15, 2023 - 8:30 AM   
 By:   Bill Carson, Earl of Poncey   (Member)

Its twang...boing boing. Dont exaggerrate.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 15, 2023 - 9:14 AM   
 By:   Prince Damian   (Member)

Its twang...boing boing. Dont exaggerrate.


I always have trouble with my twangs!

 
 Posted:   Jan 15, 2023 - 12:44 PM   
 By:   mgh   (Member)

Thanks to this, im now going to be humming "tomorrow is the song i sing....yesterday dont mean a thing" all bloody day.

It sticks in my mind too. That and Wild Rovers.

 
 Posted:   Jan 16, 2023 - 1:39 AM   
 By:   chriss   (Member)



I recently did this little screenshot. This title credit must be one of the last of its kind. The scoring on this one was so delicate I don't think there was much to do for Arthur Morton though. But it was a nice gesture.

Yavar, I understand your enthusiasm but I think there's no need to revisit this music while so many great scores remain unreleased. I don't want to start another list here, just one from the WB catalogue Intrada tried to license for years: The Outlaw Josey Wales.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 16, 2023 - 3:01 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

I love this score too.
Easily Top 5/10 in my Best JG scores ever.
But looking at the above breakdown, it looks like the existing CD is more than adequate for lovers of the film and its score, even if the differing sources can be a tad jarring (Butterfly Mornings sounds like it's recorded straight from the DVD).
Of course, a re-issue for fans who missed out is a different matter, although the first release seemed to stick around for a very long time.
Great film...great score. I think the book is closed for me.

 
 Posted:   Jan 16, 2023 - 3:13 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

Yes, I love the score, I don't think I would buy it again (I would not re-buy most of the soundtracks I already have), but if they re-release it or newly release it, great. I just don't know if the score is popular enough for a re-release?

I remember when the Varèse Edition came out, that was wonderful, I always wanted that score. But it took quite a while to sell out.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 16, 2023 - 3:38 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

The booklet and notes on the Varese release are superb.
I don't see them being improved upon with any future release.

 
 Posted:   Jan 19, 2023 - 4:05 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

I'd personally welcome track-by-track notes on a potential future release, but I know those are no longer the norm, alas. You're right that Nick Redman's notes are still very good on the Varese release -- I'm not surprised as he was such a Peckinpah buff and this was one of his favorites!

Yes, I love the score, I don't think I would buy it again (I would not re-buy most of the soundtracks I already have), but if they re-release it or newly release it, great. I just don't know if the score is popular enough for a re-release?
I remember when the Varèse Edition came out, that was wonderful, I always wanted that score. But it took quite a while to sell out.


That's because very few people knew the film, at the time the CD came out in 2002. The excellent Peckinpah westerns DVD box set including it didn't come out for another four years, and as Steven Lloyd pointed out in one of the poll threads, the four year old Varese CD then promptly sold out within months! My own experience aligns with this, as I'll confess the Varese CD originally didn't connect much with me, falling near the bottom of the heap when it came to Goldsmith western scores on album. But then each time I see the wonderful film, I connect more and more with the score... I just love it now, and I GET it too.

I honestly would really love to know about the collaboration between Goldsmith and Gillis on this. Gillis was clearly there in pre-production at least, because characters sing their themes in song form on screen (except for the one Goldsmith wrote for Cable Hogue himself, which is performed by and has lyrics by Gillis, but isn't sung by anyone diegetically). But Goldsmith also did an *amazing* job of adapting Gillis's own melodies "Wait for Me, Sunrise" (for Joshua) and "Butterfly Mornin's" (for Hildy and her relationship with Cable) into his instrumental score, in cues like "The Preacher" and "Hildy Leaves"... he really embraced Gillis's work and the whole thing ends up almost being a sort of a subtle western musical, which I love!

chriss, an expanded edition of Cable Hogue doesn't mean that The Outlaw Josey Wales (which I also want) couldn't happen too. It's not an either/or proposition so why act like it is?

Kev, I confess I can't understand why someone who considers this in the top 5/10 of Goldsmith's output would say "the book is closed for me" regarding a new and improved edition! I mean... this score has only ever been released ONCE (compare that to the majority of Goldsmith scores which have received multiple revisits over the years). And almost SEVEN MINUTES of Goldsmith were left off (let's not forget that's pretty big, percentage wise, when we are talking about a sparsely spotted score like this... especially if we are just focusing on the instrumental pieces).

Intrada revisited The Secret of NIMH and added a single three minute cue, and nobody complained. They revisited In Harm's Way and added a 90 second cue (plus some source music pieces) and I'm pretty sure nobody complained about that, either!

Hell, La-La Land reissued Magic and added something like TWENTY-THREE SECONDS of previously unreleased music, and lots of people were happy to get it!

But Cable Hogue is missing almost seven minutes of Goldsmith and no, it's not worth a single revisit to include everything he wrote that survives? C'mon people! Are you sure you're even fans of this score?? Fully HALF of the most significant cue in the score, the almost six minute long "The Guest", is MISSING! The first appearances of the "Butterfly Mornin's" theme for Hogue first meeting Hildy ... MISSING! I think "Vengeance Seeking Husband" has some pretty cool stuff when Goldsmith revisits the "Rattlesnake" material... but most of all I honestly miss two short little omitted bits: the absolutely gorgeous rendition of Goldsmith's main theme when Hogue and the banker have that quiet moment of connection, and Goldsmith's lovely accompaniment of David Warner himself singing his own Richard Gillis theme "Wait for Me, Sunrise" right after "Hasty Exit". Both of these are kinda magical moments in the film, though brief, and now having revisited the film I feel their absence on album very acutely!

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 1:44 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

Just to make sure: I never ever complained about any label releasing any score, expanded or not. I am always happy if something is re-released, regardless of whether or not I am personally going to buy a particular release. For all I care, all of these scores can be continually re-issued, remastered, remixed, expanded, and so on. I think that's great.

It is just that I am personally a bit selective when and if I re-buy a score, because in my experience, some of these expansions may be nice but are not essential.

I like the movie THE BALLAD OF CABLE HOGUE (along with THE WILD BUNCH probably my favorite Peckinpah movie), and I love the score. And I love the Varèse Sarabande soundtrack album. Would I buy a remastered and expanded release of that score? Probably not, but maybe I would. It would depend on a lot of factors, one of which even would be who releases it and what other releases at the time are of interest to me. To order a single film score CD from the US would cost me around $50.- ($20.- CD, $13.- shipping, plus likely custom fees etc.) I am not very likely to pay $50.- just for a few more minutes of a score, not even THE BALLAD OF CABLE HOGUE. It used to be easier, as international shipping was less and it was easier to order "bulk", simply because there was more released (which I wanted and didn't already have). Nowadays, I have (almost) all the classic film scores I ever wanted. Sometimes, a "surprise must get" release like FRENZY comes along.

But I like your enthusiasm, Yavar, and maybe you would convince me to buy it.

I did re-buy EXTREME PREJUDICE, for example, even though I was perfectly happy with the previous release(s), after hearing the Goldsmith Odyssey Podcast. :-)

However, I picked up EXTREME PREJUDICE on Qobuz for 7.49€ (even in 24bit/96kHz), so that was an okay price. If BALLAD OF CABLE HOGUE is expanded and released like that, ok, I probably would pick up a copy.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 2:16 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

Pretty much what Nic just said.
Yes, there's always 'never say never' but the Varese is a fantastic release which satisfies me every time I play it.
And I don't imagine another 6 minutes making me love it that much better.
But then another 30 seconds on TWLIGHT'S LAST GLEAMING would certainly make me love that one much better.
Sometimes, if you don't find contentment, you'll never be truly happy (or something...I'm confused-ias) wink

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 3:34 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

"By the way, I was surprised to discover that Goldsmith's final touching score cue, "The Eulogy", actually doesn't play in the film! His eulogy goes unscored.."
----------------------------
I'm pretty sure I already mentioned this in the old CABLE HOGUE thread.

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 7:18 AM   
 By:   DavidCorkum   (Member)

Pardon me if this has already been brought up, but Tomorrow is the Song I Sing also exists as a single, sung by Gillis. It was on an old LP I had years ago, I think it was a Japanese bootleg that contained a bunch of single clips from various scores. The label was POO I think. It plays like the Main Title, but doesn't have the instrumental pauses where Cable was talking to God. I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere but that bootleg. It's not the alternate end title, it runs longer.

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 12:22 PM   
 By:   Gold Digger   (Member)

Pretty much what Nic just said.
Yes, there's always 'never say never' but the Varese is a fantastic release which satisfies me every time I play it.
And I don't imagine another 6 minutes making me love it that much better.
But then another 30 seconds on TWLIGHT'S LAST GLEAMING would certainly make me love that one much better.
Sometimes, if you don't find contentment, you'll never be truly happy (or something...I'm confused-ias) wink


Is this the aggressive musical explanation where Richard Widmark’s character is told of the take over of silo 3 by any chance? The coda I think is longer. ??

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 12:28 PM   
 By:   Tall Guy   (Member)

Pardon me if this has already been brought up, but Tomorrow is the Song I Sing also exists as a single, sung by Gillis. It was on an old LP I had years ago, I think it was a Japanese bootleg that contained a bunch of single clips from various scores. The label was POO I think. It plays like the Main Title, but doesn't have the instrumental pauses where Cable was talking to God. I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere but that bootleg. It's not the alternate end title, it runs longer.


I had that LP as well. It had some really interesting stuff on it, and “They’re Letting Me Drive Again”.

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 12:36 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Pardon me if this has already been brought up, but Tomorrow is the Song I Sing also exists as a single, sung by Gillis. It was on an old LP I had years ago, I think it was a Japanese bootleg that contained a bunch of single clips from various scores. The label was POO I think. It plays like the Main Title, but doesn't have the instrumental pauses where Cable was talking to God. I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere but that bootleg. It's not the alternate end title, it runs longer.

It certainly hasn't been brought up in THIS thread, and I don't remember learning it in any previous thread! Thanks! I guess that's yet another thing that should be included on a definitive expansion of The Ballad of Cable Hogue...

Yavar

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 5:17 PM   
 By:   DavidCorkum   (Member)

It certainly hasn't been brought up in THIS thread, and I don't remember learning it in any previous thread! Thanks! I guess that's yet another thing that should be included on a definitive expansion of The Ballad of Cable Hogue...

Yavar


It's possible that this is it here. The stated running time is 3.10. It seems to indicate that it was produced independently, but I recall it sounding pretty much exactly like the released Main title, minus the instrumental pauses.

https://www.discogs.com/release/13185491-Richard-Gillis-Tomorrow-Is-The-Song-I-Sing-Butterfly-Mornins

 
 Posted:   Jan 20, 2023 - 6:00 PM   
 By:   Yavar Moradi   (Member)

Fascinating! It says "arranged and conducted by Don Costa". Also, the B side with Butterfly Mornin's might be Richard Gillis singing his own composition this time?

Yavar

 
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