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 Posted:   Dec 6, 2023 - 4:03 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

Young Bess uses several period pieces of music, arranged by Rozsa. The supplementary notes for the excellent presentation in the Rozsa Treasury are good at crediting these (like one piece originally by Henry VIII and another by John Bull, etc).
But the notes aren't clear to me on one piece... the DANSK DANS. Is that a wholly original Rozsa piece, or is it just an arrangement of a period piece? The notes could be interpreted either way, I think.
Anyone out there who can clarify?

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 6, 2023 - 8:14 PM   
 By:   MMM   (Member)

Who wrote the notes?

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 6, 2023 - 8:44 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

Who wrote the notes?


I just checked and John Fitzpatrick is the name at the end of those particular notes.

The piece is described as:
"The choreography, the tempo, and the modern-instrument orchestration are, however, more sedate than the 16th-century originals..."

Which to me could mean a newly-composed piece from Rozsa in the general style of 16th-century pieces, or... a modern orchestral arrangement of an existing period dance tune (which in those days could exist in multiple dance versions adapted by various royal court composers in europe, which would explain the use of the word "originals" (plural).

I'm familiar with all the other period pieces credited in the soundtrack, but not Dansk Dans. I'm leaning towards it being Rozsa's own work, but I'd like to know for sure.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 1:00 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

If it's any help, "dansk dans" means "Danish dance".

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 6:25 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

I just checked and John Fitzpatrick is the name at the end of those particular notes.

With massive help from Frank DeWald, who was able to identify a number of the Tudor Era source materials that Rozsa used. Because Rozsa never wrote an account of his research for this score (as he had done for Quo Vadis, Ivanhoe, Plymouth Adventure, etc.), the question of original vs. adaptation had lingered for decades. The "Dansk Dans" (accompanying a reception for the Danish ambassador) appears to be original Rozsa.

I should emphasize that what enabled us to clarify the nature of the various themes was the documentary material provided by Turner to Film Score Monthly. Those materials and the encouragement of Lukas Kendall resulted in the exemplary documentation that characterized FSM's releases. I don't know if the other archival labels had access to similar materials. If they did -- and failed to exploit the information in their sometimes skimpy annotation -- a great opportunity may have been lost forever.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 8:18 AM   
 By:   .   (Member)


Thanks!

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 11:16 AM   
 By:   oregstevens   (Member)

The theme for Catherine Parr adapts an anonymous allemande from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Hymn Book.

 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 11:50 AM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

Nothing to add to the main topic of this interesting thread except my appreciation for reminding me of how long it's been since I listened to Young Bess.

Which spurred me to remember and dig out the old Bay Cities Hollywood Spectacular for its Fantasy on Themes from Young Bess. I haven't listened to this in decades, and never uploaded it into Apple M, but now I have thanks to this thread. I've always enjoyed this interesting concert reimagining, and wish I could hear it live, which would sound great in the Episcopal cathedral in my home town.

Interesting side note - I'd forgotten this compilation also includes a recording of the Danish Dance! Kismet.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 4:10 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)


Which spurred me to remember and dig out the old Bay Cities Hollywood Spectacular for its Fantasy on Themes from Young Bess. I haven't listened to this in decades, and never uploaded it into Apple M, but now I have thanks to this thread. I've always enjoyed this interesting concert reimagining, and wish I could hear it live, which would sound great in the Episcopal cathedral in my home town.

Interesting side note - I'd forgotten this compilation also includes a recording of the Danish Dance! Kismet.




And that in turn reminded me to listen to that old Bay Cities disc too, for the first time in a lot of years. And I see that it does (perhaps) shed some light on the Dansk Dans because they surely wouldn't have chosen to include that piece in the Bay Cities program if it wasn't a Rozsa original.

Having said that, and despite having Christopher Palmer as producer and the Royal Philharmonic playing (and not forgetting Bruce Kimmel listed in the credits) and a nice concert arrangement, I'd say that performance unfortunately comes across as very sluggish and hesitant. Apart from recommending the fine FSM soundtrack itself, I'd also put a good word in for Elmer Bernstein's enjoyable (slightly smaller-scale) re-recording of the score (one of the discs in his Film Score Collection set). If you don't already have it, the Bernstein recording is on Spotify if you'd like to compare.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 5:46 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

The theme for Catherine Parr adapts an anonymous allemande from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Hymn Book.




Yes, the Supplemental Notes make a mention of that:
"The film’s cue sheet credits the theme to Rózsa, although its first phrase derives from an anonymous “Alman” in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book (FVB No. 14)."

Here's a performance of the harpsichord original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwD_1G6qSHc

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 7, 2023 - 7:19 PM   
 By:   oregstevens   (Member)

It also appears on the John Renbourn album Lady and the Unicorn as "Alman/Melancholy Galliard."

 
 Posted:   Dec 8, 2023 - 4:44 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)


Which spurred me to remember and dig out the old Bay Cities Hollywood Spectacular for its Fantasy on Themes from Young Bess. I haven't listened to this in decades, and never uploaded it into Apple M, but now I have thanks to this thread. I've always enjoyed this interesting concert reimagining, and wish I could hear it live, which would sound great in the Episcopal cathedral in my home town.

Interesting side note - I'd forgotten this compilation also includes a recording of the Danish Dance! Kismet.




And that in turn reminded me to listen to that old Bay Cities disc too, for the first time in a lot of years. And I see that it does (perhaps) shed some light on the Dansk Dans because they surely wouldn't have chosen to include that piece in the Bay Cities program if it wasn't a Rozsa original.

Having said that, and despite having Christopher Palmer as producer and the Royal Philharmonic playing (and not forgetting Bruce Kimmel listed in the credits) and a nice concert arrangement, I'd say that performance unfortunately comes across as very sluggish and hesitant. Apart from recommending the fine FSM soundtrack itself, I'd also put a good word in for Elmer Bernstein's enjoyable (slightly smaller-scale) re-recording of the score (one of the discs in his Film Score Collection set). If you don't already have it, the Bernstein recording is on Spotify if you'd like to compare.



The “Fantasy on Themes From Young Bess” is certainly one of Rozsa’s finest adaptations from film score to concert work. The antecedent for that and the other selections on the Bay Cities “Hollywood Spectacular” CD were from the LP “The Spectacular Film World of Miklos Rozsa”. The recording was very much a labour of love by Udo Heimansburg who financed it. There’s an interview with Udo in which he discusses the recordings here: https://cnmsarchive.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/udo-heimansberg/
and where the front and back cover of the LP is shown.

The LP included a 4 page insert with notes by Rozsa and Christopher Palmer. In his notes Rozsa points out that the album is Volume 1 and that he is keenly looking forward to Volume 2. Sadly, there was no Volume 2 despite plans by Udo to record more Rozsa. As regards ‘Danish Dance’, Palmer refers to it as “a delightful example of Rozsa’s ability to provide music in light and unsophisticated vein for almost any dance-occasion past or present”.

Apart from the Bay Cities CD the recording was also released on a later Citadel CD.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 8, 2023 - 6:37 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

At least the RPO "Fantasy" was an audio spectacular. It was the disc that convinced me I needed a new amplifier.

I've heard -- but cannot now locate -- a recording of the San Francisco premiere for the American Guild of Organists. More fluid performance but limited (broadcast?) sound.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 9, 2023 - 7:37 AM   
 By:   Rozsaphile   (Member)

I imagine that Rozsa provided an original tune here because he had yet to see the film and decide on an approach. He had to provide a "pre-record" for the dancers long before the movie was completed.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 9, 2023 - 8:17 AM   
 By:   MichaelM   (Member)


The “Fantasy on Themes From Young Bess” is certainly one of Rozsa’s finest adaptations from film score to concert work. The antecedent for that and the other selections on the Bay Cities “Hollywood Spectacular” CD were from the LP “The Spectacular Film World of Miklos Rozsa”. The recording was very much a labour of love by Udo Heimansburg who financed it. There’s an interview with Udo in which he discusses the recordings here: https://cnmsarchive.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/udo-heimansberg/
and where the front and back cover of the LP is shown.

Apart from the Bay Cities CD the recording was also released on a later Citadel CD.



I bought the 24 bit download of the Citadel release and something sounded off to me... then I realized that despite the RPO being credited, there is no string section! Just brass, woodwinds and percussion (and organ on the Fantasy on Themes from Young Bess track). Was this a deliberate decision as most of the selections are marches and dances?

 
 Posted:   Dec 9, 2023 - 8:53 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)


The “Fantasy on Themes From Young Bess” is certainly one of Rozsa’s finest adaptations from film score to concert work. The antecedent for that and the other selections on the Bay Cities “Hollywood Spectacular” CD were from the LP “The Spectacular Film World of Miklos Rozsa”. The recording was very much a labour of love by Udo Heimansburg who financed it. There’s an interview with Udo in which he discusses the recordings here: https://cnmsarchive.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/udo-heimansberg/
and where the front and back cover of the LP is shown.

Apart from the Bay Cities CD the recording was also released on a later Citadel CD.



I bought the 24 bit download of the Citadel release and something sounded off to me... then I realized that despite the RPO being credited, there is no string section! Just brass, woodwinds and percussion (and organ on the Fantasy on Themes from Young Bess track). Was this a deliberate decision as most of the selections are marches and dances?



That is explained in Christopher Palmer’s notes for the album:

“The fact that no strings are employed in the orchestra of the 'Young Bess Fantasy' suggested the idea of drawing upon Miklos Rozsa’s other music for wind ensemble to complete the album. I assembled an orchestra consisting of 4 flutes, 3 oboes, 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons, 6 horns (two also playing Wagner Tubas), 4 trumpets, 4 flugelhorns, 3 trombones, 2 tubas, timpani and 6 percussion, 2 harps, piano and 6 double-basses. Most of the music we chose was originally conceived for wind ensemble and merely needed to be orchestrated from Dr. Rozsa’s original composition sketches; a few pieces (e.g. 'Via Dolorosa', 'Danish Dance', 'La Java de la Seine') I transcribed specially, in the interests of balanced programme-planning.” As regards 'Parade of the Charioteers', Palmer notes that “this is the first time the original film version for wind band (with the original introductory fanfares) has been recorded”.

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 9, 2023 - 9:03 AM   
 By:   MichaelM   (Member)

Thank you very much!

 
 
 Posted:   Dec 9, 2023 - 4:59 PM   
 By:   TerraEpon   (Member)


That is explained in Christopher Palmer’s notes for the album:

“The fact that no strings are employed in the orchestra of the 'Young Bess Fantasy' suggested the idea of drawing upon Miklos Rozsa’s other music for wind ensemble to complete the album. I assembled an orchestra consisting of 4 flutes, 3 oboes, 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons, 6 horns (two also playing Wagner Tubas), 4 trumpets, 4 flugelhorns, 3 trombones, 2 tubas, timpani and 6 percussion, 2 harps, piano and 6 double-basses. Most of the music we chose was originally conceived for wind ensemble and merely needed to be orchestrated from Dr. Rozsa’s original composition sketches; a few pieces (e.g. 'Via Dolorosa', 'Danish Dance', 'La Java de la Seine') I transcribed specially, in the interests of balanced programme-planning.” As regards 'Parade of the Charioteers', Palmer notes that “this is the first time the original film version for wind band (with the original introductory fanfares) has been recorded”.


What? How have I not heard about this album. I must track it down....

...oh good, it's on digital sites.

 
 Posted:   Dec 10, 2023 - 10:54 AM   
 By:   Sean Nethery   (Member)

...I'd also put a good word in for Elmer Bernstein's enjoyable (slightly smaller-scale) re-recording of the score (one of the discs in his Film Score Collection set). If you don't already have it, the Bernstein recording is on Spotify if you'd like to compare.

Yes, Basil, I had also forgotten this album, which I do have from the Bernstein box but haven't played in a long time. It's on the list. (Elmer B was my introduction to Rozsa in the 70's with the Warner release of Thief of Baghdad. I love that he recorded this one too.)

I actually enjoy the slower pace of the winds/percussion Danish Dance, as a nice alternative to the film soundtrack version. Yes, it's very different, but works for me that way too.

 
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