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Posted: |
Jul 30, 2024 - 6:34 PM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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Hey to Sean, good to see you, agree on that, my Colorado friend. Yeah, films are in most cases much more well known that any score that is paired with it. And it is a apple orange compare for musicians versus composers to media, it is not the same at all. Nor does any of that matter. Most of the planet can hum the Star Wars theme, but I would bet at least 50% of them could not say who wrote it. I mean, I would say Mike Post is probably the most well known, his tv themes are enormously successful, and tons of them, but most people would not have the slightest idea who he is. So most well known music, and most well known person, different. And probably Taylor Swift or Michael Jackson or Elvis would easily beat John Williams.
Hi John , always great writing hear, good to see you. Pardon, our sometimes roughness around the edges.
A
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Hey, Ado - always fun to see you post!
John and David, you are making some really good, thoughtful arguments. And I have enjoyed a few of Beato's videos over the years. So I'm not arguing about this per se. This may have been a snarky thread, but some well-reasoned thoughts are here - worth at least a skim!
My main point is entirely personal - I simply don't care or find value in best/most/worst comparisons. Clearly many do. And that's fine.
But with the Olympics in full swing, even here I tend to think we miss the point. There are an astonishing number of great athletes doing amazing feats. And the "best" are marked by fractions of a second. To me, that's just silly. We should celebrate them all - not pick and choose.
But that's not the world we live in - so "most well-known" it is!
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...My main point is entirely personal - I simply don't care or find value in best/most/worst comparisons. Clearly many do. And that's fine.
But with the Olympics in full swing, even here I tend to think we miss the point. There are an astonishing number of great athletes doing amazing feats. And the "best" are marked by fractions of a second. To me, that's just silly. We should celebrate them all - not pick and choose....
That very reasoning led the Oscars to stop saying 'and the winner is.'
For a while, anyway.
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Posted: |
Jul 31, 2024 - 3:56 PM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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Hi Sean
I was regaling my son with stories of ye old time at the Denver Continental big screen the other day. We were at our local old movie house, The Paramount, great place, but small, with very small, old chairs, I was telling him vast our old room was in Denver, and how nice the chairs were. I know the place is long gone, but she still lives in my heart.
Yeah, on the Olympics and winner of, I agree with you.
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Sean, Ado, thanks for the kind comments and actually engaging with the arguments / topic, rather than haughtily dismissing them with a variety of strawmen.
Unnecessary comeback after I've pretty much left the thread. I WANTED to engage with you on the claim, but you were more concerned with talking about Beato's previous accomplishments. You didn't actually address it until after we'd finished our exchange. So please.
Please and thank you:
Ado wrote:
"Hi John, always great writing hear, good to see you. Pardon, our sometimes roughness around the edges."
I was responding to him, not you. But yes, when he said "our," he could have been including you.
Here's the thing, Thor. I tried to dial down the conflict by expressing regret and taking the time to thoughtfully steel-man your arguments and position. I asked you to do the same three times, because nothing helps prevent two people talking past each other better than taking the time to repeat back someone else's position in such a way that they agree with it. You acknowledged that I correctly summed up your position. I asked multiple times for the same courtesy, and your only real response was to say you didn't really see what there was to steel man and went on to misrepresent me once again.
My issue with you had to do with your *attitude* toward those of us who thought Beato's claims had merit. To whit:
Well, I wasn't aware I had wandered into the Rick Beato Fan Club where every crazy claim is taken as the ultimate truth...
I suppose it's thrilling to have one's niche interest validated in some way, which is why so many of you are in 100% agreement with Mr. Beato's claim.
When someone agreed with you, your response: "Just a tiny glimmer of sanity there."
THAT'S my issue, Thor. Superciliousness. Such a condescending dismissal of those who might disagree with your position.
When I asked you if offering a structured argument would be helpful, you responded with:
I don't think it can be done. The amount of research tools you would need -- both qualitative and quantitative -- is insurmountable.
That doesn't sound like a willingness to engage with the argument. That, plus the fact that you wouldn't honestly engage with my initial objections to your comments led me to believe that creating a thoughtful well-laid out post in response to you would be a waste of time. I felt otherwise in my dealings with some of the other posters, hence my eventual detailed "defense / rebuttal" post.
As I've said in past posts, most of the time I really enjoy your writing and there's even been a few times where we've thoughtfully resolved differences. And I appreciate how you highlight and share information about older Williams works.
But I know for a fact that I'm not the first person to find you more than a bit condescending and contrarian. Maybe it's something worth looking into.
Hey, I have my own tendencies in that regard, and I work hard to keep them in check. I'm sure I'm not always successful. The prime way I work to overcome it is to be willing to steel-man someone I disagree with at the drop of a hat, which I did here. The steel-man process is not completed until the other person says, "yes, you got it."
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Posted: |
Aug 1, 2024 - 10:40 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Well, I apologize if your 'strawman' comment wasn't directed at me. It just seemed that way. But now that you've gone on a bit, I'm forced to re-enter this friggin' thing.
As I said several times already, I can't steel man things out of thin air. I'm not a magician. If you -- at any point during our conversation -- had had some kind of rebuttal to my reaction to the crazy "John Williams is the most well-known musician" claim, then, yes, I could have tried to sum that up for you. But you never did. You were more concerned with talking about everything else that he had done in the past. The closest you ever came was to say that Beato had 'earned the right' to hold that opinion. Then AFTER we'd finished, you wrote a long post about the actual claim. Now THAT I could have 'steel-manned'. But then it was too late.
The 'fan club' comment was a perfectly innocent nudge, by the way. Felt appropriate after wanting to discuss the actual topic, I instead got several replies talking about Beato's previous accomplishments, which was neither here nor there. It's like we sometimes call this place The Goldsmith Shrine or Jerry Goldsmith Monthly or some such thing when mild criticisms of the composer is taken as venom. Also, I think you're proud of being in the Rick Beato Fan Club!
I think my main issue with this whole thing is the NEED to sensationalize headlines like was done in this case, to attract audiences. It's a problem with our times, really, and Beato is certainly not the only one to do it. So even if his heart was in the right place, it's a very "unsexy" way of forming an argument in my book.
But hey -- mission accomplished! We wouldn't be having this conversation if he hadn't done it that way, and if it was just a video on Williams' stature.
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It's amazing how far a smiley face emoji can go toward dialing back invective. 
It's not a matter of being a member of a fan club, it's more a matter of Beato having earned the respect of many musicians and composers, as evidenced by the quality of the people he has on his channel and the number of film composers I saw sharing Beato's video with a hearty endorsement. Some of these guys are Williams competitors. So, I'd say it's a matter of respect.
One doesn't have to be a "fan," it's more a matter of finding someone who can speak with some expertise and enthusiasm about a subject that's important to you. In the case of Beato, it's a wonderous thing for some of us composers to hear him go on about the voicing of a chord in a Williams work and *why* it works the way it does in terms of emotional impact. We can relate, as in - "YES! This is the stuff I've been hearing and admiring and talking about for years, and here is someone else who hears what I hear!" We also love the fact that his accessible way of speaking about such things opens up the topic to a whole new world of people. So there is validation, but it's validation from a very different place than you were suggesting.
RE: "click bait" titles. It's a Catch-22:
You have great and invaluable information to impart to the world, something you think will appeal to a broad audience that will also benefit from it. Yet if you title the video, "The Cultural Impact and Popularity of the Music of John Williams" your audience is going to be massively limited. If you title it as Rick did, a lot more people are going to watch and benefit from it. And my hope is that they take the time to explore some of his other videos, as there is some excellent content there.
I face the exact same problem in my other business, home theater / home audio. I have a tendency to write long dissertations here (and elsewhere) on digital audio and speaker science (you may have stumbled upon one of them). My company puts out educational videos on these topics, mostly devoted to myth-busting. Recently we did a 90 minute long webcast on the future of Blu-ray / 4K disc, with some industry experts on the topic. We could have called it, "The Future of Physical Media," but instead went with "Is Physical Media DEAD???"
Not my first choice, but like I said, a Catch 22. If I want the information to get out to an audience, I'm going to publish a headline that will get people to click on it. Otherwise it just gets lost in the noise.
This month we are likely going to do a myth-busting episode around speaker science. Most people think that speaker preference is totally unpredictable and random, yet we have about 60 years of peer-reviewed research that shows listener preference can be predicted with about 90% confidence by using a measurement system called a Spinorama, aka CEA2034.
Now, I could put out this webcast with the title "How Speaker Preference Can Be Predicted by the CEA2034 Measurement System," or I could title it, "Everything You Think You Know About Speakers is WRONG!!!"
Obviously, the second is gonna get a lot more views! And as much as I may not like it and admit that it's a click-baity title, I am willing to do it since I think the information is extremely valuable and can help consumers make better decisions and save money. The more people this info gets exposed to, the better.
But yes, that title is pure click-bait.
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Hey John, I did not realize you were in Colorado too, my old home, I miss it.
You and Sean are lucky. It is sweltering in Texas
Well, it's 95 here today! But humidity is only 22%.
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Ado -thanks for bringing up the Continental - one of three great theaters we used to have, along with Century 21 (where I remember seeing The Shining and Raiders of the Lost Ark), my favorite, The Cooper (where I remember watching the first three Star Wars films, Close Encounters, so many others). All gone in, two razed. And yes, The Paramount is a cool vintage space with really uncomfortable chairs, so I skip it these days.
And yes, at least in Colorado it's a dry heat. You are welcome back any time!
And John - a wave to a fellow Coloradoan.
Ok, back to thread- I got nothing more on this subject.
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Off thread topic but on Colorado movie theater topic:
Best theater I know of in Colorado from a picture and sound standpoint is the AMC Dolby Cinema at the Chapel Hills Mall here in Colorado Springs. Not only is the technical presentation first rate, they have a giant *SCOPE* screen. I can't stand these shoeboxes where the screen is 1.85:1 native and Scope material is letterboxed.
Nice to know you, Sean!
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In fairness Thor, I did actually meet someone a number of years ago who said he was "a huge soundtrack fan" -- but didn't know who John Williams was.
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In fairness Thor, I did actually meet someone a number of years ago who said he was "a huge soundtrack fan" -- but didn't know who John Williams was.
Did you punch him in the face?
I thought about it -- but decided giving him a CD-R of Williams' music was the more tactful solution! 
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