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Posted: |
Oct 10, 2015 - 5:01 PM
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By: |
Graham Watt
(Member)
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Before Dr. No ...
Before John Barry began writing music for cinema ...
... there was Great Britain's 'Golden' Age! (d'oh)
There's plenty of threads on John Barry just as there's plenty of posts about the James Bond franchise.
When a thread is created on ... say ... a black-and-white film produced by the British film industry during the 1950s or '40s, this sort of thread sinks off of the message board's page 1 in a day or less.
I'm curious to witness how many FSMers (especially the Barry fans & Bond fans) are well-rounded enough viewers and listeners to converse about the following composers who had toiled in the industry pre-1960:
1. William Alwyn (88)
2. Malcolm Arnold (88)
3. Hans May (84)
4. Philip Green (83)
5. Stanley Black (81)
6. Clifton Parker (78)
7. Edwin Astley (66)
8. Benjamin Frankel (65)
9. John Addison (63)
10. Mischa Spoliansky (51)
11. Allan Gray (49)
12. Richard Addinsell (43)
13. Nicholas Brodsky (35)
14. Albert Elms (34)
15. James Bernard (32)
16. Francis Chagrin (27)
17. Robert Farnon (26)
18. Laurie Johnson (26)
19. Anthony Collins (25)
20. Matyas Seiber (20)
The approximate number of film scores by these 20 composers are in parenthesis after their names.
A lot of composers were filtered out of this list because they either had less than 20 films scored (such as William Walton and Vaughan Williams) or commenced scoring around the same time as John Barry had done (i.e. R.R. Bennett, Johnny Dankworth, Ron Grainer, etc.).
This is not intended to be a comprehensive or factual type of thread; rather, it should be interesting to see input on why pre-1960s British films and their film scores are rarely chatted about.
If one is unfamiliar with the above composers, then a different question might paraphrase the challenge:
Do you own soundtracks from James Bond movies but do not have any (inclination to own) Chandos compilation discs of suite recordings from vintage British cinema? If so, explain your reasoning. 
Speaking for myself, I consider Benjamin Frankel to be an ideal representative of 1950s British film music whilst I associate William Alwyn with the finest scores from the late 1940s.
Which composers' aesthetics resonate most with your own sensibilities in this area?
[... and no chatting about John Barry! I'd like to see if Barry fans can control themselves to NOT mentioning Barry.  ]
Zardoth hath thpoken! You will forgive me - I'm on my second bottle of sulphites, so I'd better get this in before I die. And do be aware of the fact that it's another of my streamofconsciousness rabbits, so anything can happen in the next half hour. Anyway, it's interesting (to me) that although I like quite a lot of British concert-hall composers (the majority of whom didn't make Thardoth's Lizst), of the ones mentioned I'm not that struck on any. Maybe it's to do with the "fact" (see the "inverted commas"?) that some of them had an easy-listening background (British light music was only ever good for making cakes in the kitchen), or some other factor, but for some reason the pre-1960 era never resonated much with me. From Hollywood yes, but from Blighty no, not so much.
Here's a little background. When I was a wee boy in a Glasgow tenement, I taped ALL the Main Titles from ALL the films which were on the telly. I think I started around 1973, and stopped when I was a "grown man" at the end of that decade. So my cassettes are jam-packed with the Main Titles of thousands of films, many of them British. But if they didn't connect with me then, they have a hard job of vying for my attention now. So in a way it's really time to show my ignorance. I'm not going to consult the Great Wiki or anything - this is man-in-the-pub talk, and I'll get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for my filmic ignorance... I actually haven't seen many of the classic films scored by the composers on Zardoz's list. But here goes. This is where I lose the little credibilty I ever had. In order, and without thinking about it (it's almost as exciting as a reality show now) - - - - -
1) William Alwyn - I don't remember any of his music. I think he did NIGHT OF THE EAGLE, a good supernatural thriller, but I can't recall if the music was good. It's on the cassetes though. See what I mean?
2) Malcolm Arnold - I like him. WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND is my favourite, but that's too late probably for Z's list. Nothing else stands out at the moment, after the sulphites (excuses excuses).
3) Hans May - Don't recall anything by him.
4) Philip Green - He did a Peter Cushing film I think. Don't remember any of his music from my old cassettes.
5) Stanley Black - Have many of his themes on the old cassettes, and I even have two of his score CDs. Average.
6) Clifton Parker - My favourite from the original list. Yes, I like this man's music.
7) Edwin Astley - Again, I have his (unmemorable?) pre-'60s horror themes on those old cassettes. Good TV scoring from the '60s though. But we're not allowed to mention that on this thread.
8) Benjamin Frankel - Nah, not too much. I have his CD of CURSE OF THE WEREWOLF of course, but he never really left much of an impression in general.
9) John Addison - I've got loads of his stuff on the old cassette. I always found him a bit annoying (with some notable exceptions, as is the case with a handful of people on the list.)
10) Mischa Spoliansky - I don't remember anything he did.
11) Allan Gray - I've got THE AFRICAN QUEEN on cassette. It annoys me.
12) Richard Addinsell - I think I only know The Warsaw Concero. That's bloody annoying. Spike Milligan hated it too.
13) Nicholas Brodsky - Can't remember anything he did.
14) Albert Elms - I was getting him mixed up with Edwin Astley. See Number 7 (tee hee.)
15) James Bernard - Now you're talkin'! But although I think that his scores work tremendously well in the films he wrote them for, they're a little bit simplistic as a stand-alone experience. With notable exceptons of course.
16) Francis Chagrin - Can't remember a note of his stuff.
17) Robert Farnon - Heard a lot of his work, not just scores, but his "light" albums. They washed over me.
18) Laurie Johnson - I like him when he's copying Herrmann. Otherwise, his music seems far too light and... gay... in all senses of the word. His JASON KING theme is the only one out of the macho ITC series of series which is too gay.
19) Anthony Collins - I don't think I've ever heard of him.
20) Matyas Seiber - I know that name. I must have him on cassette. I don't remember a note of it.
It's strange - looking back on that list, I notice that my favourite scores for British films seem to be post-1960, and from composers who didn't make Zardoz's list. Lutyens, Schurmann etc. I'll finish the wine and ponder on that.
////P.S. Added the next day - Automatic spydrone////TS-tusojos/// - Hmm, I'm narrowing my few "likes" comments even more, because the few positive comments I made were about, I think, scores from after 1960. Oh dear.
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... you didn't mention Auric (who worked in the UK).
Yes, I've omitted Georges Auric. Auric scored many classic French films from the 1940s and is perhaps remembered most for his collaborations with Jean Cocteau.
Though he worked in British cinema during the 1950s, I continue to consider him as a French composer.
But if one wishes to include him for discussion, feel free to do so ...
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It doesn’t help that early British films and their music are not well represented on physical media in the States—even less so than American ones from the same era. It’s not that I think that I wouldn’t like a lot of that music, it’s just that it’s hard enough to keep up with films and composers with which one is already familiar, without making a concerted effort to seek out unknown works.
Thanks for you input, Bob DiMucci.
Yeah, there's hardly any of those original recordings available.
My familiarity with most of those composers came with viewing Region 2 DVDs of their films which I had purchased from Amazon.uk and watched on a region-free player.
If one wishes to investigate more of Malcolm Arnold or John Addison, I suggest tracking down their early & mid-'50s work on titles such as The Night My Number Came Up ('55, Arnold) or Seven Days to Noon ('50, Addison) or The Sleeping Tiger('54, Arnold)...
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To filmusicnow & Timmer, I've excluded both Walton & Vaughan Williams simply because each scored less than 20 features.
I've also excluded others for the same reason, such as two of my faves Tristram Cary & Gerard Schurmann.
Much as I like to post about them, I feel those who scored 20 or more are deserving of the attention in this thread (such as Matyas Seiber who died prematurely due to an accident in 1960).
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Their music might be a bit before my time for my taste, so unless one of the labels suddenly presented one of their scores as the next best thing since sliced bread for me to evaluate, I haven't any need or desire to investigate further.
Hi, The Thing.
During most of my 30 years of collecting film music, it's the investigating 'further' which lead to my increase in appreciation for many a composer.
For example, I started getting discs of music by Angelo Francesco Lavagnino since the 1990s. After a half-dozen albums, I still wasn't getting into his music & stylisms. Finally, in 2014, something clicked in my head and now I'm much more interested in collecting Lavagnino CDs than those by Ennio Morricone. My appreciation for Lavagnino simmered for about 20 years before coming to full boil.
So ... circling back to British composers, one hopes that - over time - increased appreciation for Frankel, Malcolm Arnold, etc. is possible with others, too.
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I find Zardoz's posts interesting and thought-provoking, but I don't quite get this one. Other than preventing the thread from getting buried by putting "John Barry" in the title, I don't see a connection.
Nationality may not be a factor with you, Onya, but different countries have had different industries. Great Britain suffers, more than the U.S. and Italy, from missing/lost/otherwise unavailable master tape recordings.
This, I think, is a significant reason why there isn't much discussion regarding pre-'60 British film music.
Furthermore, John Barry was a key figure in the shift in musical stylizations.
Notice that in 1962, genre films such as The Night of the Eagle (aka Burn, Witch, Burn) or The Mind Benders continued to receive the 'old school' Sinfonia-type of scoring, whilst after Goldfinger & A Hard Day's Night the symphonic approach was considered passe.
By depositing John Barry's name in the thread header, I hoped to receive some perspectives on the British Golden age via members who have Silver age aesthetics. This way, instead of fans of '50s music chiming in how much they love this film music, we can get input on why it may not be so much liked by a different demographic section of the board's membership.
Hope that makes a little more sense to you, Onya?
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Scores based in pop or jazz idioms, which moved away from silvery strings and overwrought brassy melodrama. The latter just aren't my cup of tea. (Even now, I prefer Cinderella Liberty to Superman, and Witches of Eastwick to Star Wars, for example.)
That's not to say that I don't have a need, a yearning for symphonic orchestral scores from the 30s through to the 50s and beyond. I just don't satisfy it with film music. My bag is Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Nielsen, Sibelius, Tishchenko. What they have to offer suits me much more than all the names on your list.
By the way, I do have a soft spot for Frankel, who used a snippet of Shostakovich's fifth symphony in The Battle of the Bulge. Were you aware of that? As I always say, who knows film music, who only film music knows?
Yes, TG, I remember you mentioning that about Frankel's Battle.
Curious, though, that you like compositions by 20th century symphonists but not so much by those writing orchestral film scores during the '30s through the '50s.
Do you imply that bombast is acceptable as a stand-alone listening experience but not agreeable accompanying onscreen content?
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I didn't realize this. I guess, though, if the scores exist that some of these could be re-recorded?
If you refer to manuscripts, yes most of those too were discarded by the studios that owned them.
Benjamin Frankel kept a number of his manuscripts from his post-1955 film scores, but nothing prior to his The Prisoner ('55) exists.
Check out the Naxos CD of Frankel music conducted by Carl Davis (released about 10 years ago).
As for Malcolm Arnold, the reason why Marco Polo recorded The Roots of Heaven with David Copperfield was precisely because they were the only 2 that survived in manuscript form (and owned by 20th Century Fox in the U.S., no less!)
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Graham, I did not include Lutyens & Schurmann simply because they scored less than 20 features.
That's why I call it a 'challenge' so we won't chat about what we love most but limit ourselves to a finite list of names.
I'm signing off soon, so I'll give a little more feedback on your input later.
But for Matyas Seiber, I think you would be rather receptive to his sparse but effective music for the Michael Anderson-directed Chase a Crooked Shadow. The opening credits just has solo guitar music, but the rest of the score is chamber-like & atonal & very subtle.
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Posted: |
Oct 11, 2015 - 2:41 AM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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As for the initial post from Music Mad, I wish to reminds folks that William Alwyn's 1959 Shake Hands with the Devil was issued onto a United Artists LP (so I am not sure one can state that Beat Girl was the 1st soundtrack from a British film).
This all depends on how one defines a "British" film. BEAT GIRL was a wholly British-financed production, while SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL was an Irish-U.S. co-production.
The picture was filmed at the Ardmore Studios in Bray, Ireland, and as stated in the credits, "on actual Irish locations," including the streets of Dublin. Although some contemporary sources state that SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL was the first American picture to be filmed entirely in Ireland, THE QUIET MAN was shot on location in Ireland in 1951. SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL was the first American film shot at Ardmore Studios, however, and was the first production of both Troy Films, which was director Michael Anderson's production company, and Pennebaker, Inc., which was founded by Marlon Brando and his father, Marlon Brando, Sr., in 1955.
If the definition of "British" films includes those that had American involvement, you can add THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI, THE INN OF THE SIXTH HAPPINESS, and many others that pre-date SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL.
Exactly! I think there may be a few Irish folk who would take exception to your suggestion, Zardoz, that Shake Hands with the Devil (1959) was a British film. It reminds me of the old joke - courtesy of Terry Wogan - about the Americans who are touring and upon being asked how long they are staying in the Emerald Isle reply, ... only for a day or two, then we head over to the mainland ...
But back to music: even if we include and thus displace the title I suggested (Beat Girl) ... is this anything to promote? I have William Alwyn's score (as part of the MGM Treasury) but it's not one I visit very often (last played nearly 18mths ago). Admittedly the sound quality is poor being easily the worst sounding in that FSM collection (even allowing for the LP transfers of the two Ennio Morricone scores). It's just typical 1950's (or should I write: pre-1960's?) style lacking any real warmth/involvement. It's not bad and I don't dislike it ... it just doesn't hold my attention.
It is, however, one of only a few examples I have of OST material pre-1960 as most of the other works, be they British, American ... or somewhere in between ... are re-recordings.
Mitch
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Posted: |
Oct 11, 2015 - 3:14 AM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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I would so like to state that British film music pre 1960 was wonderful and worth collecting in the same way as scores from Hollywood's Golden Age but, seriously, I can't support that notion. There are some fabulous pieces but, for me, that's just it: pieces ... not scores.
Maybe if complete scores were re-recorded (or OSTs made available) we could get to know such works better and thus appreciate them more but we're limited to your suggestion, Zardoz, that we watch the films (many are now available on DVD).
Coming at this topic from another angle: I like easy-listening music (often shunned by others), having started my music buying with Geoff Love, so that I now have a small collection of works by Mantovani ... that most British of British arrangers/conductors in the post war years! He recorded many albums of film themes and having played one such this morning: (Exodus and other great themes (1960) I took note of the selection ... 12 tracks ... not one was from a British film.
In the two previous years he released albums Film Encores, vol.1/2 from which I have 17 tracks ... not one is a British film. Compare these to his 1956 (fabulous) album Music from the Films where he is accompanied by the pianists Rawicz and Landauer: Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto, Williams' The Dream of Olwen and Bath's Cornish Rhapsody ... all wonderful stand-alone pieces of a concert-hall nature. If this doesn't tell you something about British film music at that time then nothing will.
We Brits wrote some fabulous music - for film - pre-1960 but it is mostly isolated cues. For me, this changed in 1960 - perhaps not quite over-night - but the pop influence which had been brewing for three or four years moved in and took over ... until the new pop influence at the end of the decade came close to destroying the medium.
Perhaps John Barry owes much of his success to being there at the right time and he was as much a beneficiary of the changing styles as British (initially) film music was a beneficiary of his talent. Whatever your view on this, I do think 1960 was the watershed.
Mitch
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even if we include and thus displace the title I suggested (Beat Girl) ... is this anything to promote? I have William Alwyn's score (as part of the MGM Treasury) but it's not one I visit very often (last played nearly 18mths ago). Admittedly the sound quality is poor being easily the worst sounding in that FSM collection (even allowing for the LP transfers of the two Ennio Morricone scores). It's just typical 1950's (or should I write: pre-1960's?) style lacking any real warmth/involvement. It's not bad and I don't dislike it ... it just doesn't hold my attention.
Actually, I do think Shake Hands with the Devil is an album worthy of promotion, for several reasons.
It is the only soundtrack (that I'm aware of) that offered a single film score by William Alwyn; the newer recordings of his works via labels like Chandos are all compilations with emphasis on suites.
As such, United Artists' Shake Hands with the Devil is one of the infrequent situations of original recording sessions done in England (pre-1960s, that is) which got preserved as an album master for LP format.
I acknowledge Bob DiMucci's input regardings the films themselves as co-productions, but for the purpose of music I focus on recordings done in GB (especially if conducted by Muir Mathieson and performed by the Sinfonia of London).
Even including all the Malcolm Arnold LPs on Columbia & Fox (Trapeze, Bridge, The Key, Roots, Inn, etc.), this is a rather small subset of the LPs that were available during the late 1950s.
The only other title which I recall at this time is Capitol's Saint Joan by Spoliansky, which I have no doubt was recorded in England. There's likely more English recordings on U.S. soundtracks, so others feel free to chime in on this.
Not wanting to get too involved in the definition of 'British' with MusicMad and Bob DiMucci, I use 'British' as an umbrella term to cover England, Ireland, Scotland & Wales. When referring to Great Britain, I do not intend to limit that to England only. Having said this, though, it seems to be that recording studios were (& are) based in England.
Shake Hands with the Devil might have been an Irish co-production, but I doubt Muir Mathieson and the Sinfonia traveled to Ireland to record Alwyn's music.
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And surely, using your definition ... we can now treat Vertigo as a British film score ... can we not?
Much of my focus is on British conductors and London ensembles, but Herrmann did not work in the British film industry on U.K productions during this time period.
Some of us collectors are aware (or should be) that there was a U.S. musician union strike during 1958 which had forced some recordings to be done outside the U.S.
Had there been no strike, Vertigo would have most likely been recorded in California.
I don't wish to use the term English, either, so perhaps I should simply state "U.K." instead of British since this appears to be an issue with a few folks.
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