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 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 10:56 AM   
 By:   Vermithrax Pejorative   (Member)

One can argue that many here don't have any 'horses in this race' and indeed, this was the norm, back in the day. I think now though, there exists a level of transparency by which one can do business.
It's clear some (most?) labels are quite thorough about licensing and checking details before they press ahead with a release, while others (?) are happy to plough on, like the old days, or offer these boots as sweeteners for multiple sales.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 11:40 AM   
 By:   LeHah   (Member)

Lehah, you have confused Koray Savas with Kays Savas. Two different people.

I stand corrected - but will keep the original post unedited for sake of posterity and egg on my face.

For the rest of us who are not representing a music label in this thread, you should wear this cut-out mask of Richard Belzer, star of Law & Order SVU, as you are all apparently police officers who know the facts of every case and can pass judgement without investigation.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 11:41 AM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

That's ok, my phone auto-corrected Kaya to Kays without me noticing before I submitted smile It's fixed now, though.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 11:42 AM   
 By:   Robin Esterhammer   (Member)

To lay the supposed Charmed bootleg issue to rest once and for all, here is the email I sent privately to MV Gerhard after he posted his false accusations.


Dear MV,

As you know, I am getting a lot of heat from the other labels for putting out what some of you consider a bootleg. While I still reserve myself the right to respond to these allegations, I need you to clarify something on your Intrada post, which is completely and utterly untrue:

1. I didn't "try yo pull a fast one on Charmed" - I had a deal with Peter Robinson to re-record the Charmed tracks for a double album that I was going to pay him anywhere from $3-5K for. When I contacted CBS to license some additional music we were informed that the initial release of a score on TV does not qualify for the automatic right to have it re-recorded by someone else. We actually had three law firms involved in this debate, which tells you that no none knew exactly what the situation with the re-recording rights were. In order for us to license the tracks from CBS, which, at this point, they were willing to do, they wanted a license fee of $10,000, a sum both Peter, his manager, as well as myself found as too unrealistically high, so we declined. Peter wasn't happy having to pull out of a deal that he had already had so much time and labor invested in. When the deal fell through, AND ONLY THEN, you guys came into play.

2. I tried to do so "while you were in negotiations for the damn project" - If you had already been in talks to license the double album why did Peter work with me on this project for several months? Also, how come CBS were willing to license the music to me if there was another party already interested.

3. "Luckily we stopped the release in its tracks before his bootleg got out there." - You didn't stop anything. The reason Perseverance didn't release the Charmed music was that CBS wanted too much money upfront. That's all. And it was NOT a bootleg. I wish you people stopped using that term in connection with my releases.

In closing, I want to point out that the Charmed album that Lala Land Records eventually released is, note-for-note, the very same album Peter and I selected, re-recorded, sequenced and mastered. And where was my name on the credits?

I leave it up to you how you deal with this, but I hope you have enough decency and honor in you to rectify this error in judgement by posting the truth about Charmed in another post.

Sincerely,

Robin Esterhammer
President & CEO
Perseverance Records

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 11:42 AM   
 By:   Stefancos   (Member)

Lehah, you have confused Koray Savas with Kays Savas. Two different people.

It's a pity too. I wanted to use that as my new signature on the MB.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 11:47 AM   
 By:   La La Land Records   (Member)

To lay the supposed Charmed bootleg issue to rest once and for all, here is the email I sent privately to MV Gerhard after he posted his false accusations.


Dear MV,

As you know, I am getting a lot of heat from the other labels for putting out what some of you consider a bootleg. While I still reserve myself the right to respond to these allegations, I need you to clarify something on your Intrada post, which is completely and utterly untrue:

1. I didn't "try yo pull a fast one on Charmed" - I had a deal with Peter Robinson to re-record the Charmed tracks for a double album that I was going to pay him anywhere from $3-5K for. When I contacted CBS to license some additional music we were informed that the initial release of a score on TV does not qualify for the automatic right to have it re-recorded by someone else. We actually had three law firms involved in this debate, which tells you that no none knew exactly what the situation with the re-recording rights were. In order for us to license the tracks from CBS, which, at this point, they were willing to do, they wanted a license fee of $10,000, a sum both Peter, his manager, as well as myself found as too unrealistically high, so we declined. Peter wasn't happy having to pull out of a deal that he had already had so much time and labor invested in. When the deal fell through, AND ONLY THEN, you guys came into play.

2. I tried to do so "while you were in negotiations for the damn project" - If you had already been in talks to license the double album why did Peter work with me on this project for several months? Also, how come CBS were willing to license the music to me if there was another party already interested.

3. "Luckily we stopped the release in its tracks before his bootleg got out there." - You didn't stop anything. The reason Perseverance didn't release the Charmed music was that CBS wanted too much money upfront. That's all. And it was NOT a bootleg. I wish you people stopped using that term in connection with my releases.

In closing, I want to point out that the Charmed album that Lala Land Records eventually released is, note-for-note, the very same album Peter and I selected, re-recorded, sequenced and mastered. And where was my name on the credits?

I leave it up to you how you deal with this, but I hope you have enough decency and honor in you to rectify this error in judgement by posting the truth about Charmed in another post.

Sincerely,

Robin Esterhammer
President & CEO
Perseverance Records


Robin

CBS (the company that entrusted La-La Land Records with their Star Trek franchise) had no prior knowledge of this release until I brought it to their attention (after you started taking orders). So spare ALL of us your lies. You were trying to slide this one by and you got caught. You embarrassed yourself and the composer and now you are further embarrassing yourself.

Furthermore, you are not credited or thanked on this release because both CBS and the composer wanted nothing to do with you or acknowledge how you underhandedly acted. We released what J Peter assembled because it was what he wanted and CBS agreed. You are lucky you got out of this as unscathed as you did.

Oh, and if you fine folks want another example of how this guy operates go on over to the Intrada Message board and read Roger's post all about ICE PIRATES. Fascinating stuff. smile

MV

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 11:51 AM   
 By:   Miles (MerM)   (Member)

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 12:13 PM   
 By:   mstrox   (Member)

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 12:14 PM   
 By:   mstrox   (Member)

double post

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 12:29 PM   
 By:   Robin Esterhammer   (Member)

To lay the supposed Charmed bootleg issue to rest once and for all, here is the email I sent privately to MV Gerhard after he posted his false accusations.


Dear MV,

As you know, I am getting a lot of heat from the other labels for putting out what some of you consider a bootleg. While I still reserve myself the right to respond to these allegations, I need you to clarify something on your Intrada post, which is completely and utterly untrue:

1. I didn't "try yo pull a fast one on Charmed" - I had a deal with Peter Robinson to re-record the Charmed tracks for a double album that I was going to pay him anywhere from $3-5K for. When I contacted CBS to license some additional music we were informed that the initial release of a score on TV does not qualify for the automatic right to have it re-recorded by someone else. We actually had three law firms involved in this debate, which tells you that no none knew exactly what the situation with the re-recording rights were. In order for us to license the tracks from CBS, which, at this point, they were willing to do, they wanted a license fee of $10,000, a sum both Peter, his manager, as well as myself found as too unrealistically high, so we declined. Peter wasn't happy having to pull out of a deal that he had already had so much time and labor invested in. When the deal fell through, AND ONLY THEN, you guys came into play.

2. I tried to do so "while you were in negotiations for the damn project" - If you had already been in talks to license the double album why did Peter work with me on this project for several months? Also, how come CBS were willing to license the music to me if there was another party already interested.

3. "Luckily we stopped the release in its tracks before his bootleg got out there." - You didn't stop anything. The reason Perseverance didn't release the Charmed music was that CBS wanted too much money upfront. That's all. And it was NOT a bootleg. I wish you people stopped using that term in connection with my releases.

In closing, I want to point out that the Charmed album that Lala Land Records eventually released is, note-for-note, the very same album Peter and I selected, re-recorded, sequenced and mastered. And where was my name on the credits?

I leave it up to you how you deal with this, but I hope you have enough decency and honor in you to rectify this error in judgement by posting the truth about Charmed in another post.

Sincerely,

Robin Esterhammer
President & CEO
Perseverance Records


Robin

CBS (the company that entrusted La-La Land Records with their Star Trek franchise) had no prior knowledge of this release until I brought it to their attention (after you started taking orders). So spare ALL of us your lies. You were trying to slide this one by and you got caught. You embarrassed yourself and the composer and now you are further embarrassing yourself.

Furthermore, you are not credited or thanked on this release because both CBS and the composer wanted nothing to do with you or acknowledge how you underhandedly acted. We released what J Peter assembled because it was what he wanted and CBS agreed. You are lucky you got out of this as unscathed as you did.

Oh, and if you fine folks want another example of how this guy operates go on over to the Intrada Message board and read Roger's post all about ICE PIRATES. Fascinating stuff. smile

MV



MV,

You are calling ME a liar? Get your facts straight, man! The reason, CBS "got wind of this release" was that I contacted them about releasing additional music that wasn't re-recorded by Peter Robinson. Not because you had something to do with it. They were talking to me before you entered the picture. I have a name at CBS that I am not going to name on public, but that I am willing to give to anyone who emails me in private.

Do you know of anyone, who got a copy? No? Then stop accusing me of releasing a bootleg! It's very common practice for labels to announce releases and start pre-selling them. That's how we finance them. At least I do. And it's also known that, sometimes, deals fall through after you have announced a release. I am sure you all had that experience. If not, more power to you. But stop calling me a bootlegger!

This is the last time I am posting on this board. I have had it.

All the best,

Robin Esterhammer
<Robin@PerseveranceRecords.com>

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 12:37 PM   
 By:   La La Land Records   (Member)



MV,

You are calling ME a liar? Get your facts straight, man! The reason, CBS "got wind of this release" was that I contacted them about releasing additional music that wasn't re-recorded by Peter Robinson. Not because you had something to do with it. They were talking to me before you entered the picture. I have a name at CBS that I am not going to name on public, but that I am willing to give to anyone who emails me in private.

Do you know of anyone, who got a copy? No? Then stop accusing me of releasing a bootleg! It's very common practice for labels to announce releases and start pre-selling them. That's how we finance them. At least I do. And it's also known that, sometimes, deals fall through after you have announced a release. I am sure you all had that experience. If not, more power to you. But stop calling me a bootlegger!

This is the last time I am posting on this board. I have had it.

All the best,

Robin Esterhammer
<Robin@PerseveranceRecords.com>



Ah, so you started pre-selling this cd before you even had a deal in place?

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case. smile

MV

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 1:28 PM   
 By:   McD   (Member)

Hmmm, there is plenty about this thread that is starting to feel very wrong to me. We've already lost a big label (FSM) and I don't want to see any others go down the tubes, whether that is Intrada, LaLaLand or Perseverance.

Soundtrack releases, let's face it, have all been about cutting legal, moral or musical corners from Day One in most cases. Licenses have been dodged, composers have been ignored and scores have been cut to ribbons back when it was too expensive to do otherwise. If this was 'pop music' not soundtracks, the labels who ignore the artist would be getting it in the neck from the hardcore fans. Here it's the opposite.

From what I can gather, Perseverance may not have been as thorough in the past as some other labels at getting a license, or rather in making sure the license they had acquired was on the money. Oh, and that Perseverance seem to work directly with the composers which many other labels don't do.

My moment of clarity, if you will, came when La La Land posted a link to the FSM thread on Charmed. I started to read the original post (assuming it was from La La Land as I didn't recognise the handle). Oh, I thought, they worked with the original composer, doing it all the way Perseverance seemed to like doing it. Well done, maybe I had this all wrong. Then I get to the end and find out that the original poster was from Perseverance.

A post from Intrada that has not been reprinted which doesn't make a lot of sense. In response to 'should they also be pissed off with Safan himself?'

Not at all. I've had plenty of composers come to me with projects they want to do, but I've never had a composer look over my shoulder to make sure I've got all the proper clearances in place. That's not their job...they just trust I know how this business operates.

No idea what this is supposed to mean. Safan CHOSE the Mission of the Shark tracks for HIS promo. If he knew Intrada were about to release it and Intrada are pissed, then Safan and Intrada have an issue. What this has to do with Perseverance putting it out though, with Safan being in the clear, I do not know. It's all moot unless we find out exactly what Safan and Perseverance knew about this upcoming release. If the answer is 'nothing' then what the hell are they complaining about?

It was followed by this:

MGM has generally been supportive of promotional releases and probably would have been happy to license those tracks to Robin (or possibly more likely told him they were already being released so he should focus on something different). But he didn't even ask them.

Why would he? It's a composer-produced Promo. Lukas Kendall has obviously taken Intrada's side, but is on record as saying - with regards to ignoring the creators of the work he sells - 'to ask permission seeks denial'. You don't need permission for a promo, so why would they expect him to seek it?

And this...

Just because you're not charging for something doesn't give you the right to distribute someone else's IP.

Haven't Intrada being guilty of this. Only they charged as well?

Finally this... it is a promo. Of excerpts. What are Intrada so afraid of? Who the hell is not going to buy a Safan soundtrack from a film they've never heard of (i.e. a Safan fan) just because they have a track or two of it on a compilation? Anyone?

The promo does what it says on the tin. It's the composer's lesser known favourites. And it's a great promotion of his work. The CD is a corker. I'd like to hear complete scores of all of it.

Someone paid to produce it. And he's using it to promote his own soundtrack releases. Get a copy or get over it.


 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 1:34 PM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

Soundtrack releases, let's face it, have all been about cutting legal, moral or musical corners from Day One in most cases.

Nothing you write after this has any interest for me after this ludicrous statement.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 1:40 PM   
 By:   Trent B.   (Member)

I normally wouldn't chime in threads like this...

However, I will say that the only label I have really seen do pre-orders before the CD was in stock so far has been GNP. Even as far as taking your money before they have the product from the pressing plant. Now normally I don't mind this from GNP since I have had the money to cover said pre-orders from their last three Trek releases.

Grant Intrada does the "pre-orders" whenever a CD (or two) is released from them but they ALWAYS ship out the NEXT day.

LLL only makes the CD's available for purchase when they actually have them in stock and on hand. I have never really seen them do the pre-orders since I've been in the collecting hobby.

I don't really seem to recall FSM having done this either....the whole pre-order thing.

So saying all labels do it is a bit inaccurate.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 1:42 PM   
 By:   jedizim   (Member)

I normally wouldn't chime in threads like this...

However, I will say that the only label I have really seen do pre-orders before the CD was in stock so far has been GNP. Even as far as taking your money before they have the product from the pressing plant. Now normally I don't mind this from GNP since I have had the money to cover said pre-orders from their last three Trek releases.

Grant Intrada does the "pre-orders" whenever a CD (or two) is released from them but they ALWAYS ship out the NEXT day.

LLL only makes the CD's available for purchase when they actually have them in stock and on hand. I have never really seen them do the pre-orders since I've been in the collecting hobby.

I don't really seem to recall FSM having done this either....the whole pre-order thing.

So saying all labels do it is a bit inaccurate.


Perseverance, BSX, GNP, Music Box, Quartet, Kritzerland...all do pre-order before the CD is physically available.

AND Varese and their club titles are all pre-order as well...

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 2:09 PM   
 By:   Francis   (Member)

The Perseverance licensing issues seem like an annual recurrence... though I have to wonder how many people actually went ahead and got this new promo? And of those people how many will now refrain from buying the Intrada because they have... 3 tracks from said album? roll eyes

Yes, and I know; "How many tracks does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm? One, three, C&C? How many tracks does it take, Admiral?" wink

I wonder if 'MISSION OF THE SHARK' is even worth all the attacks back and forth, it'll probably go out of print after 3 months because they couldn't sell most of it and I doubt if Perseverance's promo will make even the slightest difference?

By the way, I'm still seeing Perseverance titles being sold by Intrada?

Yawn.

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 2:30 PM   
 By:   Anthony Marose   (Member)

I've said it once, I've said it twice... Robin Esterhammer's practices and products are both not worth anyone's time. Period.

 
 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 2:46 PM   
 By:   Octoberman   (Member)

Yes, and I know; "How many tracks does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm? One, three, C&C? How many tracks does it take, Admiral?" wink


NICE!
Made me laugh. smile

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 6:16 PM   
 By:   drivingmissdaisy   (Member)

I can say I've met I believe just about all the labels except for Quartet and Music Box and all these guys are so so passionate and the amount of stuff they know on scores, who owns what, where the rights lie is, for a geek like me is very fascinating. I LOVE film music. It's in my soul. I have been playing it daily for over 23 years. Not one day has gone by that I haven't listened to a score or several in one day. So these labels, all of them for me are kind of like my heroes. They all have given me so many tunes that I've been wanting for years that I'll eternally be grateful to them for the rest of my days. Does that sound sappy, probably but it's the truth. Heck even back in the day with Bruce Kimmel on Bay Cities giving us/me Return to Oz. BK will always be on a pedestal to me for that one.

Most know I love us coming together as a community whether it be the fans come together or the labels who ALL put out great stuff. Heck Intrada alone has filled my Horner catalogue so generously that I will always be in their corner.

LLL has given me some of my grails and they have been nothing but super cool and nice, especially Blazing Saddles which had instrumentals of the songs. I love that, yes I'm just that nerdy! And I can't forget Mommie Dearest. I can't imagine that sold well, but you bet your bottom I got a copy. THANK YOU

Roger F. over at Intrada what he said about Santa Claus the Movie was so dead on that I LOVE IT! That is the kind of stuff I love hearing and if I was in his shoes making soundtracks, I would have thought the exact same, Darn we couldn't do it, but thankful someone else could and know they would give the score the respect it deserves. Also one of my biggest grails ever. Thank you Quartet for that one. I would love to see someday each label sending to all the other labels copies of what they just released as a good gesture kind of thing. I think that could really be a great thing and it wouldn't be a lot of copies, just one or two copies to each label. Keeps the good vibes flowing from label to label. I know some do this, but don't know if everyone does. Again, I'm a community guy. I love seeing everyone coming together for the greater good which is making great projects! I also love seeing other label owners names on other labels projects. That is awesome I think. People helping each other out even if they are competing labels.

I've also had the opportunity to meet and hang out with Robin and I believe his heart is in the right place, sometimes goofs were made, heck we all goof up, I know I do. Though I don't know a lot of the history that happens behind closed doors in the soundtrack industry, but maybe others have slipped up here and there. I feel the most important thing is to learn from all your mistakes and this goes way far beyond this issue and into daily life. Learn from your mistakes. Now saying that sometimes in the past it's taken me a few times to follow my own advice. I've sat with Robin quite a bit and I really do feel his heart is in the right spot and he's been absolutely one of the nicest guys to me.

I also am the type of person who really tries to believe in a person and give them a chance etc. It's just in my character. I appreciate all of the labels for doing so much for us fans. It pains me to see you guys put so much into a release only to be chastised by my fellow fans because there's one misspelled word or, you didn't use the cover art from this poster that this one fan liked etc. etc. There are bigger problems in the world then a misspelled word or something.

I think a new chapter at Perseverance Records is about to take flight and as Roger said so elegantly, "he'd be happy to add them to the list."

Congrats on Mission of the Shark and I just have to add, LOVE LOVE LOVE what I heard on the Safan promo by the way and it's because of those few tracks that once Intrada release it, you bet I'll be ordering my copy. Though now I'll have to start paying sales tax since I live out here in California, darn darn darn. It's worth it to keep all of you going.

Dear Roger at Intrada I do hope it's okay I added a quote or two from you, but they were really well stated and so damn good. Only the BEST intentions from me to the community of course. smile

From a DIE hard score fan and from a fan who loves all the labels, KEEP up the good work us blood thirsty score craving fans love the tunes! smile

 
 Posted:   Jul 24, 2013 - 6:29 PM   
 By:   Shaun Rutherford   (Member)

Well, I guess we don't need to buy his autobiography now, at least.

 
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