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Posted: |
Jan 12, 2014 - 4:13 PM
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By: |
MusicMad
(Member)
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Given that Ron lists John Barry first in his list of favourite composers (profile), I feel we have something in common ... despite me being on the end of a lashing on another post a few weeks ago! 
And, whether we have similar tastes or not, I'm sorry if my enthusiasm for this Jerry Goldsmith score encouraged him either to spend and/or overly anticipate this purchase. I re-iterate: I find this to be one of my favourite JG scores ... and, since I have well over 100 of the great man's scores I am entitled to express such favouritism.
Is it a great score? That depends on how we assess scores. I know many state that the score's sole purpose is to aid the film in telling its story ... everything else is secondary. And if, according to that, the score should be a series of blips and bleeps ... or nothing (The Hill & Annie - though I've seen neither so can't comment) ... so be it. I'm far too selfish to agree. I want a score that I can enjoy away from the visuals. If it's tuneful that helps but I do like atonal works too.
I've seen Sebastian, though it was many years ago and I'd probably dismiss it as a bit of light entertainment now, and I recall enjoying the score immensely. It was in those days when I would watch out for the name of the composer in the credits, starting to recognise names. No internet, no guide books ... nothing to tell this young viewer who had written the music (e.g. just who was that person Delerue whose name appeared on that Ron Goodwin album Excitement my parents bought me in 1971 - tr.2 Women in Love?)
So when I had the opportunity to buy the album (score?) for Sebastian - I can't recall from where - I went for it. Perhaps it was the first JG score I ever bought (that or Ransom) and so it holds a special place for me.
I've bought other JG scores since and Sebastian isn't my favourite JG score ... but I've bought many many other scores by this Maestro which I enjoy far less. So, yes, I am sorry if my posting misled you, Ron, it wasn't intentional. My expressed view was heartfelt.
Mitch
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Thank you, Mitch. In no way do I feel that any of those who love "Sebastian" and wrote about it intentionally misled me. But the uniformity and intensity of the praise simply didn't prepare me for how I felt about the music when I played the CD. And that brings us to musical taste, which can be quite elusive. Some may hate Dvorák or Wagner or Mahler while others adore them; some may be bored to death by Georges Delerue and others entranced by him (and so forth). Recognizing that, I shouldn't have reacted so strongly, though when I posted the above I just couldn't believe that anyone could possibly love "Sebastian." But apparently they do, they really do, which was a wake-up call for me. I apologize to both the lovers of "Sebastian" as well as to Intrada, and will eventually trade or sell it to someone who can appreciate it more than I. It's been an interesting couple of days.
And to Last Child, no it had nothing at all to do with electronic music (was there any in that score?). Most of us love the way synthesizers have been used by Vangelis ("Blade Runner," "Antarctica"), Michael Stearns ("Chronos") and even Maurice Jarre -- just love his "Building The Barn" from "Witness" and missed the synthesizers when others re-did the popular cue on later compilation albums. Indeed, I have a huge collection of New Age music.
And to haineshisway, re: "Whatever one thinks of the score outside the film, the score IN the film works perfectly and that is all that counts, I'm afraid, because that's what this music was created for." Granted, but I think that you of all people would admit that many soundtrack lovers buy soundtracks for films they've not only not seen but films they have no intention of seeing. Like most, I'll see a movie, love the soundtrack, and buy its soundtrack, less as a remembrance of the film than for my love for the music itself. I'm not fastidious about the cues being in strict chronological order (within reason -- I certainly wouldn't want to put them on shuffle!), although some here are quite passionate about the cues being in precise order as heard in the film. And I think that the reason why I'm more lax about that is because I lean towards a satisfying listening experience, which doesn't necessarily require the music to be heard just as it appeared in the film. And I'll often buy soundtracks by John Barry and Jerry Goldsmith and Thomas Newman and others because I've heard cues from them but have never seen the movies and may NEVER see them. For me, it can sometimes be a listening experience quite apart from the film itself, and I suspect that there are a few others who would agree.
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pp: why thor?
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Posted: |
Jan 14, 2014 - 3:38 AM
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By: |
Thomas
(Member)
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And to haineshisway, re: "Whatever one thinks of the score outside the film, the score IN the film works perfectly and that is all that counts, I'm afraid, because that's what this music was created for." Granted, but I think that you of all people would admit that many soundtrack lovers buy soundtracks for films they've not only not seen but films they have no intention of seeing. Like most, I'll see a movie, love the soundtrack, and buy its soundtrack, less as a remembrance of the film than for my love for the music itself. I'm not fastidious about the cues being in strict chronological order (within reason -- I certainly wouldn't want to put them on shuffle!), although some here are quite passionate about the cues being in precise order as heard in the film. And I think that the reason why I'm more lax about that is because I lean towards a satisfying listening experience, which doesn't necessarily require the music to be heard just as it appeared in the film. And I'll often buy soundtracks by John Barry and Jerry Goldsmith and Thomas Newman and others because I've heard cues from them but have never seen the movies and may NEVER see them. For me, it can sometimes be a listening experience quite apart from the film itself, and I suspect that there are a few others who would agree.
I agree with that as well. If as we are told, the music only matters in the context of the film it was composed for, then why do we bother buying soundtrack albums at all? Should I just stick on the DVD to see why this music exists? What if I've never seen the film but like the music I've heard?
That’s why I have never been a big fan of these ‘C&C’, ‘Expanded’ releases (or whatever you want to call them), I believe that album presentations more often than not offer the best listening experience and that’s all I’m interested in. I’m listening to music, not playing a movie in my mind.
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Based on the clips on Intrada's site, I actually like the music of SEBASTIAN.
I have not (yet) picked up the CD (too many other things I've ordered and bought lately), but it sounds like a fun score with a quirky 60s groove.
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Certainly Goldsmith had greater and lesser scores--I just find that I am always interested in how he approaches each project.
Ditto. And sure he had greater and lesser scores, but even his lesser scores still hold my interest more than many others' "greater" scores.
The Goldsmith score I truly dislike has yet to be written, it seems. (And that's highly unlikely. :-)
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Thomas: Re: I believe that album presentations more often than not offer the best listening experience and that’s all I’m interested in. I’m listening to music, not playing a movie in my mind.
But, simplistically, it's sort of like hearing a symphony that has for eons been performed with several cuts and discovering that it's an entirely different critter when heard in its entirety. I've long had the CD of the John Ottman/John Williams "Superman Returns," and the recent 2-CD set is at times almost revelatory, and within the big 8-CD set of "Superman," the Williams discs are exhilarating. But other times the originals are quite sufficient for most of us, so expansions aren't always necessary. In my Japanese import of "Joanna," which Rod McKuen himself sent me (along with about 2 dozen other CDs of his), there are almost twice as many cues as was on the original soundtrack, and I couldn't find a single one that seemed superfluous.
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Posted: |
Jan 14, 2014 - 10:05 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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Goldsmith scores are interesting without fail.
The issue of finding them pleasing is a totally different question. I think you can conversely find some of the modern wallpaper type scores pleasant but NOT interesting. Background wallpaper scoring can be pleasant enough, partly because it is not very demanding on the ears or the brain. Goldsmith wrote good scores, as he said, his mission was the movie, not making a pleasant "bottle-cap" to collect. Of course we are all collectors of 'bottle caps' here.
Sebastian might be a case of not pleasant or dated or whatever, but a good score. I think that Runaway and perhaps Deep Rising are two of his looked down on scores, that are not always pleasant, but they are extremely effective. Leviathan is probably another one, beep and bloops and sampled whales, but it works like gangbusters.
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Got hold of the SEBASTIAN lp years ago, listened to it, found it unmemorable, got rid of it. Have no further interest in it.
Also had the same experience with the original CD of RUNAWAY, which I also got rid of.
Have been meaning to weed out many CD's from the collection, which I only seem to have kept for the collection, as I have only listened to them once.
Over the years, interest in many obscure scores has increased, probably because of their rarity. I once found the CD of THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW, for only $8.99 at at used-CD place here in San Diego, if you please. Played it once, found it unmemorable, then sold it. Had no interest.
And, I have no doubt there are people out there who would feel the same way about scores I love.
Such is the way of things.
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Posted: |
Jan 14, 2014 - 12:13 PM
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By: |
Ron Pulliam
(Member)
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Got hold of the SEBASTIAN lp years ago, listened to it, found it unmemorable, got rid of it. Have no further interest in it.
Also had the same experience with the original CD of RUNAWAY, which I also got rid of.
Have been meaning to weed out many CD's from the collection, which I only seem to have kept for the collection, as I have only listened to them once.
Over the years, interest in many obscure scores has increased, probably because of their rarity. I once found the CD of THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW, for only $8.99 at at used-CD place here in San Diego, if you please. Played it once, found it unmemorable, then sold it. Had no interest.
And, I have no doubt there are people out there who would feel the same way about scores I love.
Such is the way of things.
Concur wholeheartedly.
"The Serpent and the Rainbow" is costly because it's hard to find not because it's great music.
I rate "Runaway" slightly higher than "Sebastian", but not much.
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Posted: |
Jan 14, 2014 - 12:18 PM
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By: |
Ron Pulliam
(Member)
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Thomas: Re: I believe that album presentations more often than not offer the best listening experience and that’s all I’m interested in. I’m listening to music, not playing a movie in my mind.
But, simplistically, it's sort of like hearing a symphony that has for eons been performed with several cuts and discovering that it's an entirely different critter when heard in its entirety. I've long had the CD of the John Ottman/John Williams "Superman Returns," and the recent 2-CD set is at times almost revelatory, and within the big 8-CD set of "Superman," the Williams discs are exhilarating. But other times the originals are quite sufficient for most of us, so expansions aren't always necessary. In my Japanese import of "Joanna," which Rod McKuen himself sent me (along with about 2 dozen other CDs of his), there are almost twice as many cues as was on the original soundtrack, and I couldn't find a single one that seemed superfluous.
Using that argument, Ron, I'd like to say that symphony you cite had some interesting, possibly beautiful, music in it before you heard the whole work. Finding it a different and more interesting thing in its complete form is a joy.
However, when the partial presentation of a work is drudgery itself, I'd hardly think I'd be tempted to hear the "whole" presentation of it.
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I'm with you.
I don't think any more of SEBASTIAN would increase my appreciation.
Remember: SEBASTIAN was released at a time when everyone was jumping on the bandwagon of the "secret agent" genre, following in the wake of the mammoth success of the James Bond series. This one starred Dirk Bogarde as a suave agent. Bogarde was ever so suave, but the picture tanked, and so did Bogarde's future as a secret agent...
(I think Bogarde was more believable as a fey villain in another secret agent "Mondo Sixties" movie, MODESTY BLAISE, which, by the way, also tanked...)
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