 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Okay, both ST:TMP and STV are great scores.
But here's two reasons why ST:TMP is the greater.
First, ST:TMP introduced not one, not two, but three really strong primary themes. I don't recall STV introducing any new themes, at least not strong ones. ST:TMP was a true original, STV is derivative.
Second, in ST:TMP the Enterprise and Klingon themes were serious and stately. In STV they are less stately, less serious and get reduced to Tom and Jerry style leitmotifs, with the way they pass between each other.
In fact I think STV would have been a better score if Goldsmith hadn't gone back to those themes and had composed something new. It seemed incongruent to go back to those themes after ST2, ST3 and ST4 had moved away; and the theme had now become more associated with ST:TNG.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Posted: |
Feb 17, 2018 - 10:47 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Col. Flagg
(Member)
|
Why wasn't Goldsmith's theme used in II, III, IV, and VI? Did they not want to pay him? Horner's theme was okay, but not iconic like Jerry's. This coming from someone who likes TMP's theme well enough, just not to the extent in which it is heard in TMP.
I won't guess at how much of the reason was cost, ego, or both. But the real reason, in my book, is that the TMP main title wasn't terribly appropriate for II and III, for sure. II and III kick off from a much quieter place dramatically, and benefit from that creative decision.
Would it have made sense to quote the TMP main title at various points later in II and III? Not in my book, because by that point the music had already put me in another headspace.
As for IV, I think Rosenman could have done an adaptation to make it play as the main title. As it is, the dry dock sequence at the end of the picture – particularly during (spoiler!) the Enterprise-A reveal, is quite reflective of the emotional palette Jerry would access in V (not to mention the ground Horner had covered extensively in II and III.)
And a parting thought: I rather think Horner was a perfect stroke of luck for II and III, and that Goldsmith wouldn't have gotten the same result – in the same way that Horner proved his genius with his particular brand of emotional access in his brilliant work for Cocoon (really the Star Trek IV we never got from him, not to mention his brief Trek II quote at the climax), Glory, Field of Dreams and many others.
I love Goldsmith, oh boy. But composer casting is no different from casting actors...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why wasn't Goldsmith's theme used in II, III, IV, and VI? Did they not want to pay him? Horner's theme was okay, but not iconic like Jerry's. This coming from someone who likes TMP's theme well enough, just not to the extent in which it is heard in TMP.
I think Horner wanted to create his own theme.
Ditto Rosenman. I bet he had to be talked into even using the Courage fanfare. Didn't he also say his Trek score was the best one?
If I had to speculate on Eidelman, since they originally wanted to score the film with Mars, Bringer of War adaptations, but junked it and had him come up with his own new theme, I would speculate keeping the re-occurring theme rather than fitting into yet another old one, in the rest of the score.
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Final Frontier uses exactly two themes from The Motion Picture. Two.
Stephen, your post really confuses me. You start out by saying that both are great scores. Fantastic!
But then you go on to call Final Frontier derivative and indicate that you didn't notice it introducing *any* new themes ("at least not strong ones"). Well obviously it's subjective whether you consider them "strong" or not, but it is 100% objective fact that The Final Frontier introduces *several* new themes! And I consider them very strong and developed themes, to boot. Your statement makes me think you either never got the expansion, haven't listened to it carefully, or haven't listened to it recently.
For that matter, amid all of this praise for TMP, let me just say this: despite all of its more complex textures and such for V'Ger, two of those three strong themes you point out are actually very underdeveloped in the score (of course that's probably a result of the film, but still) -- the Klingon theme and Ilia's theme get practically no development (same goes for the Spock/Vulcan theme which you failed to mention perhaps because it doesn't leave as strong an impression). It is only the main theme that does.
Now, in the complete score of The Final Frontier, there is one theme like that: The Mountain, the beautiful theme for the friendship between Kirk/Spock/McCoy. It's development is more like Ilia's theme; it appears in only three cues total (though that's still two more appearances than the Klingon theme gets in TMP!)
But there are multiple other themes in the score that get sustained development: Sybok's theme (heard only in Open the Gates on the original album, so it seemed like a standalone), the Eden/Shakaree theme (which has a grand culmination near the end), and another theme that I guess represents the Great Barrier. The latter even surprisingly showed up in Jerry's next Trek score, taking the role of the friendship theme, for Picard/Data and Picard/Worf. That's three substantially developed new themes, one of which even carries on into future Trek scores. Add The Mountain (which is only fair, if you're counting the Klingon theme for TMP) and The Final Frontier more than holds its own, objectively speaking.
If subjectively you consider those themes inferior, well I can't really argue that with you. But all four of them are superb and memorable in my mind, and absolutely elevate Final Frontier, despite the Tom & Jerry aspect of the main and Klingon themes in the score, which I will grant -- partially. Sometimes both themes are actually used very well, and the Klingon theme in particular has a subtle appearance in A Busy Man which is just brilliant. I really wish people would stop talking like Final Frontier is somehow dumbed down compared to TMP.
Yavar
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It could just be plain popularity and ultra-memorability. I mean, JG went in with a director who was looking for something "kinda like Star Wars, but not" and was delivered better than that (anyone who gives both themes an attentive listen can hear how coolly different they are to each other). In fact, one of the best things about what maestro Jerry did was make it obvious he was going for just as strong a theme with his own fingerprint (the latter shows up mostly in his orchestrational quirks for STTMP's theme).
I've been checking Final Frontier out more on YT. I do hear the mickey mousing/Steiner thing (which to be fair might have been JG aiming for a lighter tone). But Yavar has a good point: STTMP, despite the super strong two themes, is more about creating textures. FF is a bit Rozsa-esque in that he did intertwine more melodies.
And I must mention, as must as I practically worship STTMP as a score, the blaster beam got a little old for me by the time I threw on the second disc of the LLL. But then there were the supa cool alternates...
Either way, I've GOT to get the expanded FF. I still have Coma in my queue, Inchon...the Haunting I'm not completely sure on, but I'm mostly there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think using the ST: TMP theme was a good way of connecting the series. It's still the Enterprise -- just a new one; still Starfleet; still the same universe, just the future, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: |
Mar 5, 2018 - 10:26 AM
|
|
|
|
By: |
Rnelson
(Member)
|
The Final Frontier uses exactly two themes from The Motion Picture. Two.
Stephen, your post really confuses me. You start out by saying that both are great scores. Fantastic!
But then you go on to call Final Frontier derivative and indicate that you didn't notice it introducing *any* new themes ("at least not strong ones"). Well obviously it's subjective whether you consider them "strong" or not, but it is 100% objective fact that The Final Frontier introduces *several* new themes! And I consider them very strong and developed themes, to boot. Your statement makes me think you either never got the expansion, haven't listened to it carefully, or haven't listened to it recently.
For that matter, amid all of this praise for TMP, let me just say this: despite all of its more complex textures and such for V'Ger, two of those three strong themes you point out are actually very underdeveloped in the score (of course that's probably a result of the film, but still) -- the Klingon theme and Ilia's theme get practically no development (same goes for the Spock/Vulcan theme which you failed to mention perhaps because it doesn't leave as strong an impression). It is only the main theme that does.
Now, in the complete score of The Final Frontier, there is one theme like that: The Mountain, the beautiful theme for the friendship between Kirk/Spock/McCoy. It's development is more like Ilia's theme; it appears in only three cues total (though that's still two more appearances than the Klingon theme gets in TMP!)
But there are multiple other themes in the score that get sustained development: Sybok's theme (heard only in Open the Gates on the original album, so it seemed like a standalone), the Eden/Shakaree theme (which has a grand culmination near the end), and another theme that I guess represents the Great Barrier. The latter even surprisingly showed up in Jerry's next Trek score, taking the role of the friendship theme, for Picard/Data and Picard/Worf. That's three substantially developed new themes, one of which even carries on into future Trek scores. Add The Mountain (which is only fair, if you're counting the Klingon theme for TMP) and The Final Frontier more than holds its own, objectively speaking.
If subjectively you consider those themes inferior, well I can't really argue that with you. But all four of them are superb and memorable in my mind, and absolutely elevate Final Frontier, despite the Tom & Jerry aspect of the main and Klingon themes in the score, which I will grant -- partially. Sometimes both themes are actually used very well, and the Klingon theme in particular has a subtle appearance in A Busy Man which is just brilliant. I really wish people would stop talking like Final Frontier is somehow dumbed down compared to TMP.
Yavar
The one point I would disagree on is that Ilia's theme in STTMP is underdeveloped. As Goldsmith used a darker version of Ilia's theme for V'ger I'd say it was very cleverly developed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
