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Posted: |
Aug 15, 2018 - 9:49 AM
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By: |
Leorx
(Member)
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Would you agree with me that these 5 living film composers are the five best objectively speaking?
Elliot Goldenthal
John Williams
Thomas Newman
Howard Shore
Ennio Morricone
Pretty much all of them are masters and are argubly better than everyone else in the field at their particular thing, be it craftsmanship, versatility, melody writing, being more original and/or inventive etc.
If not, why do you disagree and what would your top 5 living film composers look like (from an objective standpoint)? I am really curious why someone wouldn't think that these five composers aren't the five best living film composers.
I don't see how anyone else alive in the field could seriously challenge these five film composers I just mentioned.
Joe Hisaishi is maybe the composer who is closest to these five, but he is not as original and/or inventive as say Newman, Goldenthal or Morricone, nor does he have the chops of Williams - and he isn't as imaginative as Shore is.
The fours other composers (if we were to make a top 10) would be James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer, Ryuichi Sakamoto and Vangelis. Although I acknowledge that a few or so of other living film composers can possibly challenge a few of these names, but not any of the composers in the top 5.
I would like to hear what you think of this, am I correct, or would you disagree with me about the objective top 5?
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Well by naming Vangelis you don't seem overly concerned about the size of a composer's output or how recently they have scored a film. Morricone (and I guess Hisaishi/Sakamoto, although they're not at the top) aside your list also seems very American-film centric, to be perfectly objective. Objectively are you really sure that no other living Japanese/Chinese/Russian/European film composers would compete? Tan Dun? Michiru Oshima? I guess I don't feel familiar enough with the work of Yuri Poteyenko, but I guess I would ask, do you really feel you have a handle on film composers around the world so thoroughly that you can declare your list to be truly objective somehow?
In my own view (also admittedly English-language-film-centric, although none of the following are Americans) Christopher Gordon, John Powell, and John Scott are clearly objectively better than some of the folks on your top 10. But I think that's my subjective option about what's objectively true. 
Yavar
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Well what does "best" mean in your estimation? Most compositionally talented? Most "important"? Most influential on others? Most unique/unusual? It feels like you are using different criteria to justify each of these.
Much as I love Howard Shore, I don't think he'd top James Newton Howard were it not for perhaps Lord of the Rings. Is a single long important work more weighty than say the bulk of Howard's collaborations with Shyamalan?
What about Danny Elfman? In terms of versatility, unique compositional voice, and impact on pop culture, he certainly seems like he should be on the list. The Nightmare Before Christmas is a masterwork which everyone recognizes (Black Beauty is a masterwork that only a few like me do, apparently).
Elliot Goldenthal is perhaps the most compositionally brilliant of all composers on your list (even Williams and Morricone!) But he's seemingly largely retired from film composition and I certainly wouldn't say that he is objectively "greater" than either of those two old masters.
I guess what I'm getting at is that I think a truly comprehensive and objective list is impossible and a fool's errand. Why not just stay concerned with the top 5 living film composers *important to you*? (Or is that basically what you are doing, and you're just trying to prop up your choices as somehow being objective rather than subjective?) I'm really not trying to give you a hard time; I'm just a bit confused as to your goal here.
Yavar
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Posted: |
Aug 15, 2018 - 10:15 AM
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By: |
Leorx
(Member)
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Well by naming Vangelis you don't seem overly concerned about the size of a composer's output or how recently they have scored a film. Morricone (and I guess Hisaishi/Sakamoto, although they're not at the top) aside your list also seems very American-film centric, to be perfectly objective. Objectively are you really sure that no other living Japanese/Chinese/Russian/European film composers would compete? Tan Dun? Michiru Oshima? I guess I don't feel familiar enough with the work of Yuri Poteyenko, but I guess I would ask, do you really feel you have a handle on film composers around the world so thoroughly that you can declare your list to be truly objective somehow?
As for the list being very American-centric, I couldn't think of anyone else who could measure up to these five (save for Morricone). I don't count Tan Dun as a film composer - he is more a concert composer who has dabbled in film - he has only done three major films or so if I remember correctly. Michiru Oshima; she isn't better than anyone of them at what they do. Yuri Poteyenko I am not too familiar with, but based on the two or so scores I have heard, it doesn't sound like he belongs in a top 5.
Who outside the US (save for Morricone), would you think belong in a objective top 5? Do they really have the chops of Williams and/or are they as original and/or inventive as Newman or Goldenthal?
Yes, objective, for fun to see if I can get everyone to agree with that 
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Here are mine:
Morricone
Williams
Schifrin
Legrand
Michael J Lewis
Sorry, Ms Portman, Monsieur Desplat, Mr. Scott, Q, and a few others: tried to get you in there.
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Posted: |
Aug 15, 2018 - 10:52 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Any objective evaluation in this case will always have a tinge of subjectivity. But if taking various parameters into consideration -- stature, popularity, historical influence, skill, ingenuity etc. -- I think I'll land on these five myself:
John Williams
Ennio Morricone
Hans Zimmer
Danny Elfman
Elliot Goldenthal
The latter is somewhat debatable, especially as he has semi-retired from film scoring (I'd be willing to replace him with Thomas Newman), but the first four are pretty cemented, I think. Older gents like Legrand and Schifrin are legends, of course, but haven't had the same staying power (except maybe Schifrin's M:I theme).
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Posted: |
Aug 15, 2018 - 10:55 AM
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By: |
Leorx
(Member)
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Well what does "best" mean in your estimation? Most compositionally talented? Most "important"? Most influential on others? Most unique/unusual? It feels like you are using different criteria to justify each of these.
Much as I love Howard Shore, I don't think he'd top James Newton Howard were it not for perhaps Lord of the Rings. Is a single long important work more weighty than say the bulk of Howard's collaborations with Shyamalan?
What about Danny Elfman? In terms of versatility, unique compositional voice, and impact on pop culture, he certainly seems like he should be on the list. The Nightmare Before Christmas is a masterwork which everyone recognizes (Black Beauty is a masterwork that only a few like me do, apparently).
Elliot Goldenthal is perhaps the most compositionally brilliant of all composers on your list (even Williams and Morricone!) But he's seemingly largely retired from film composition and I certainly wouldn't say that he is objectively "greater" than either of those two old masters.
I guess what I'm getting at is that I think a truly comprehensive and objective list is impossible and a fool's errand. Why not just stay concerned with the top 5 living film composers *important to you*? (Or is that basically what you are doing, and you're just trying to prop up your choices as somehow being objective rather than subjective?) I'm really not trying to give you a hard time; I'm just a bit confused as to your goal here.
Yavar
Overall, all of these criterias you mentioned taken together, but the music itself and the most intelligently scored films are the most important things. Zimmer is probably more influential than anyone else in the field today, but he is surely not in the top 5 because of him being pretty limited compositionally. Influential is pretty much maybe only criteria where he "wins" on. Popularity isn't for instance something I take into account, then Zimmer would surely be in the top 5, but just because something is popular it doesn't mean it is the best obviously, or even good.
Shore is more imaginative than Newton Howard. His Cronenberg collaborations are more imaginative etc than Newton Howard's collaborations with Shyamalan. That is not to mention The Lord of the Rings which is simply one of the towering achievements in film music history. Nothing Newton Howard has done measures up to it. Shore also wrote maybe the best thriller score since Psycho with Seven while taking a refreshingly different approach than Herrmann - he has more such achievements to his name that Newton Howard really doesn't.
Don't get me wrong, I like Newton Howard, he is in my top 10 and have written some good scores for sure, but as I said, he is not as imaginative as Shore and he doesn't have anything as towering as LOTR and his other achievements in certain genres such as Seven, which I mentioned is maybe the finest thriller score since Psycho.
Goldenthal is clearly superior than Elfman and Newton Howard compositionally, far more sophicated, original, inventive and complex etc. He is also more versatile. He more than anyone else alive has inserted modern techniques into his film work too successfully. Elfman and Newton Howard hasn't written any scores that can stand on the level of Goldenthal's best - think Alien 3, Titus, Michael Collins and Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. That is why he is objectivly superior than them. Quality > quantity.
I don't think Elfman is that versatile even if he is certainly better than most. Can he really write in a more modernistic, edgy manner, say Goldenthal's Alien 3 or Williams's Close Encounters of the Third Kind? Neither is he particularly original (a lot of borrowings from Bartók, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Rota, Herrmann etc) or imaginative.
I am just interested in hearing why people don't think the five composers I mentioned belong in a top 5. That is it. If is fine if you don't agree, but i'd like to hear why someone disagrees if so, that is all. I am interested in a dicussion about what you think are the five best film composers objectively speaking.
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Posted: |
Aug 15, 2018 - 11:00 AM
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By: |
Mose Harper
(Member)
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Here are mine:
Morricone
Williams
Schifrin
Legrand
Michael J Lewis
Sorry, Ms Portman, Monsieur Desplat, Mr. Scott, Q, and a few others: tried to get you in there.
That'd be my list.
Lewis in particular seems consistently underrated to me. I wasn't familiar with his work until I started seeking out new (to me) scores a few years back. His work has repeatedly surprised me (in a good way).
As a bonus, the CDs out there of his are also not only mostly insanely inexpensive, but are among the best produced/sounding discs I own.
That said, Desplat is steadily working his way up the list and with the age of some of the artists on it, will sadly be there in no time.
Also, Cliff Martinez is building up a strong, signature body of work. Maybe not for everyone, but for me he always effectively underscores the film content.
Sorry, I guess that veers into the completely subjective which is the antithesis of the OPs intent
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As for the list being very American-centric, I couldn't think of anyone else who could measure up to these five (save for Morricone).
As soon as "I couldn't think of" enters into it, doesn't that kinda render your list subjective? My point was that a Russian person or an Asian person might conceivably have a different "objective" list...
I don't count Tan Dun as a film composer - he is more a concert composer who has dabbled in film - he has only done three major films or so if I remember correctly.
And how many more "major films" has Vangelis done? How many major films does a composer need to do to qualify for your "objective" list?
Michiru Oshima; she isn't better than anyone of them at what they do.
Calling bobbengan....calling bobbengan....
Yuri Poteyenko I am not too familiar with, but based on the two or so scores I have heard, it doesn't sound like he belongs in a top 5.
"I am not too familiar with...based on the two or so scores I have heard, it doesn't..."
My point exactly. You can't actually be objective. He was just the first living Russian film composer I thought of; I'm not familiar enough to judge his work either. But I'm not claiming I can be objective.
Who outside the US (save for Morricone), would you think belong in a objective top 5?
I don't know to be honest; I don't think I can be objective in that judgement since I'm an American and I'm primarily familiar with American films and film music. How high would I rate Gabriel Yared or Zbigniew Priesner or Bruno Coulais or Philippe Sarde or Vladimir Cosma or Philippe Rombi or even Alexandre Desplat, if I really was familiar with the extent of their non-Hollywood work? I don't know.
I know very little indeed about living Czech or Norwegian or Polish film composers either, so I won't act like I do and proclaim my Hollywood-centric list of favorites is objective. Oh, thinking of Polish, does Kilar count as a film composer to you?
Do they really have the chops of Newman and/or are they as original and/or inventive as Newman or Goldenthal?
I don't know. And it seems somewhat unlikely that you do, either. Which is my point.
Yes, objective, for fun to see if I can get everyone to agree with that
Oh, so your aim is to turn your subjective assessment into objective fact by getting everyone to agree with you?
Yavar
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Hans Zimmer
Junkie XL
Michael Giacchino
Lorne Balfe
Brian Tyler
There you go.
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Joking aside, listen to some non-American film music for once, you neanderthals!
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