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Posted: |
Jul 22, 2015 - 3:19 PM
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By: |
Jim Doherty
(Member)
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An interesting little side note about the 78 RPM record that came out on the London label with THE THIRD MAN THEME on side A and THE CAFE MOZART WALTZ on side B. There are two entirely different records of this 78, both with the same catalog number, 536. On what I believe to be the earlier of the two pressings, the pieces are probably the actual soundtrack recordings (I'll have to double check). The matrix numbers stamped in the runout grooves are D-DDR-14059-1A and D-DDR-14060-1A for sides A and B respectively. The label reads "THE THIRD MAN" THEME (Anton Karas) From the A. David O. Selznick and Sir Alexander Korda production THE THIRD MAN. Anton Karas - Zither Solo, as performed by him in the film.
I don't know where that "A" came from in front of David O. Selznick's name.
Except for the title THE CAFE MOZART WALTZ, side B contains the same label information.
The second pressing appears to be a studio recording. THE THIRD MAN THEME is almost identical to the first pressing except for minor changes in one of the bridges and in the last few notes. The same is true of THE CAFE MOZART WALTZ. The performances are a little more polished, and both sides have a clearer, fuller sound to them. While the catalog number remains the same, 536, the matrix numbers are DR-14268-1C and DR-14269-1F. The labels have less info. For instance, side A says only "THE THIRD MAN" THEME (Anton Karas) From "The Third Man." Anton Karas - Zither Solo.
I'm sure this is more information about this 78 than anyone really needed to know. I just found this to be an interesting oddity.
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Posted: |
Jul 22, 2015 - 10:15 PM
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By: |
PFK
(Member)
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Surely, Peter, you don't mean to Should all over Sir Carol, but merely to state that you would have personally preferred your suggested alternative approach. But "should have"? To what end -- to avoid creating a public sensation which helped make his film one of the most popular and enduring classics in its time? To make his unique film sound like any other ordinary movie? Now, why "should" he have wanted to do that?
Ah Preston, you're in rare form today! If Sir Carol were alive today I would tell him a thing or two about that awful zither "score!"
To me the zither is just a gimmick that caught on with many who saw the film. The zither, as used in THE THIRD MAN, is annoying, repetitious and very distracting.
As I mentioned before, when I saw the film in Boston in 1975, the audience started to laugh a bit as this awful zither kept popping up and drawing too much attention to it. And this audience was full of film buffs who love this type of movie! Of course this was Boston, perhaps other cities are less sophisticated?
Not long ago I watched again Reed's masterful THE FALLEN IDOL. A fantastic film with an excellent score by William Alwyn. William Alwyn should have scored THE THIRD MAN.
Now if only Sir Carol had used a solo violin ........
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Posted: |
Jul 23, 2015 - 2:53 AM
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By: |
Les Jepson
(Member)
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Surely, Peter, you don't mean to Should all over Sir Carol, but merely to state that you would have personally preferred your suggested alternative approach. But "should have"? To what end -- to avoid creating a public sensation which helped make his film one of the most popular and enduring classics in its time? To make his unique film sound like any other ordinary movie? Now, why "should" he have wanted to do that?
Ah Preston, you're in rare form today! If Sir Carol were alive today I would tell him a thing or two about that awful zither "score!"
To me the zither is just a gimmick that caught on with many who saw the film. The zither, as used in THE THIRD MAN, is annoying, repetitious and very distracting.
As I mentioned before, when I saw the film in Boston in 1975, the audience started to laugh a bit as this awful zither kept popping up and drawing too much attention to it. And this audience was full of film buffs who love this type of movie! Of course this was Boston, perhaps other cities are less sophisticated?
Not long ago I watched again Reed's masterful THE FALLEN IDOL. A fantastic film with an excellent score by William Alwyn. William Alwyn should have scored THE THIRD MAN.
Now if only Sir Carol had used a solo violin ........
I agree entirely; an instrument with some tonal range and timbre. Also, I'm sure that many of us have noticed that if a widely admired innovation occurs in film music it soon influences subsequent scores. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and all that. I don't recall this happening with THE THIRD MAN score.
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Of course not, and so what? It's unique. As we've been saying often in this thread, it was one of a kind. Whether or not a score inspires a host of copy-cats -- excuse me, admirers -- proves nothing one way or the other about the intrinsic worth of the original work. I hold this truth to be self-evident.
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Posted: |
Jul 23, 2015 - 9:43 AM
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By: |
PFK
(Member)
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Surely, Peter, you don't mean to Should all over Sir Carol, but merely to state that you would have personally preferred your suggested alternative approach. But "should have"? To what end -- to avoid creating a public sensation which helped make his film one of the most popular and enduring classics in its time? To make his unique film sound like any other ordinary movie? Now, why "should" he have wanted to do that?
Ah Preston, you're in rare form today! If Sir Carol were alive today I would tell him a thing or two about that awful zither "score!"
To me the zither is just a gimmick that caught on with many who saw the film. The zither, as used in THE THIRD MAN, is annoying, repetitious and very distracting.
As I mentioned before, when I saw the film in Boston in 1975, the audience started to laugh a bit as this awful zither kept popping up and drawing too much attention to it. And this audience was full of film buffs who love this type of movie! Of course this was Boston, perhaps other cities are less sophisticated?
Not long ago I watched again Reed's masterful THE FALLEN IDOL. A fantastic film with an excellent score by William Alwyn. William Alwyn should have scored THE THIRD MAN.
Now if only Sir Carol had used a solo violin ........
I agree entirely; an instrument with some tonal range and timbre. Also, I'm sure that many of us have noticed that if a widely admired innovation occurs in film music it soon influences subsequent scores. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and all that. I don't recall this happening with THE THIRD MAN score.
I agree with your comments Les. I guess with the zither in THE THIRD MAN is something you either like or you don't. We all have different interests. By the way, my mention of the violin is serious, it's my favorite instrument!
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Never over! Not until you all submit to my will!!! NYAH HAH NAH ! ! !
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I just dipped in here for the first time. I absolutely cannot imagine The Third Man without the zither score, I would say it is fundamental to the intended effect of the film, and helps make it what it is.
The argument from those who despise the score seems to be that the film would have been better with a traditional score of the time. I only encountered the film 20 years or so ago for the first time, but was already well versed in films of the 40's. And it seems to me that the zither was one of the key elements in the production that helped to distinguish it from other contemporary films and give it its own feel.
And let me just say that I question the sophistication of any audience laughing at an unusual or daring choice, as in PFK's description of the 1975 audience. A more sophisticated audience, by definition, should be more, not less, welcoming of a wider range of possibilities.
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I've always found the definition of the word 'gimmick' incomprehensible. What does that word mean? I defy anyone to define it. (See them reach for the Oxford/English dictionary.)
If you want movies like this only to be scored using conventional symphonic leitmotif technique, then you're relegating the films themselves to mere dramas. 'The Third Man' is more, and needs something unique. The hacks have done to death the other technique, sadly.
The assumption that the music must play this kind of Mickey-Mouse underlying of emotion isn't a universal one. This film has the zither-player as the tragi-comic commentator, like for instance the girl with the skipping rope who keeps appearing in 'Drowning by Numbers'. It's not just irony: it's beyond that, a hurdy-gurdy to life's roundabout sideshow.
Of course the 'psychobabble' accusation gets a whirl in this. As if art has no meaning beyond the screenplay 101 dramatic turns, and the entertainment. Gwaham Gweene would giggle at that. You can dress it up how you like, but Hollywood seems to have discouraged people from going for more than the obvious, and that's become sacrosanct. You just can't DO this film without the depth analysis of the human condition. There is no one way to score a film, unless it's a shallow film.
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Here you go: look at these various definitions of 'gimmick' just grabbed off Google's search pages, and you'll see no two are the same. The real truth is that the term is used to define pejoratively anything one doesn't approve of: it means NOTHING:
"a. A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus. b. An innovative or unusual
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
2.
a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal:
An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere.
3.
a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance.
4.
Electronics Informal. a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires.
a : a mechanical device for secretly and dishonestly controlling gambling apparatus
b : an ingenious or novel mechanical device : gadget
2
a : an important feature that is not immediately apparent : catch
b : an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle
c : a trick or device used to attract business or attention, a marketing gimmick."
The funny thing is that the zither player IS Hermes the trickster. That's your storyteller: he sits there and has seen it all. It's beyond mere opera.
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Posted: |
Jul 23, 2015 - 2:17 PM
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By: |
PFK
(Member)
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Here you go: look at these various definitions of 'gimmick' just grabbed off Google's search pages, and you'll see no two are the same. The real truth is that the term is used to define pejoratively anything one doesn't approve of: it means NOTHING:
"a. A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus. b. An innovative or unusual
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
2.
a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal:
An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere.
3.
a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance.
4.
Electronics Informal. a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires.
a : a mechanical device for secretly and dishonestly controlling gambling apparatus
b : an ingenious or novel mechanical device : gadget
2
a : an important feature that is not immediately apparent : catch
b : an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle
c : a trick or device used to attract business or attention, a marketing gimmick."
The funny thing is that the zither player IS Hermes the trickster. That's your storyteller: he sits there and has seen it all. It's beyond mere opera.
" ..... an ingenious or novel device .. scheme ... designed to attract attention ... " 
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I caught a screening of THE THIRD MAN at Film Forum (NYC) last weekend.
Beautiful film with a great score. It's always wonderful to see it on the big screen.
While the main theme is pretty much repeated through out the movie, I enjoy how it was used for both exciting and somber scenes. Versatile music. You're guaranteed to be humming it after walking out of the theater.
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