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 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 7:47 AM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

Leonard Rosenman's haunting score is one of my personal favourites, and has stuck with me ever I first saw the film as a kid. Later Goldsmith, Williams, Goldenthal, Davis scores owe this a hell of a lot.



Does anyone know the location of Rosenman's handwritten manuscripts for this film? Apparently he orchestrated it all himself, because of its extreme atonal polyphony. I'd love to study it myself and take notes. The orchestration alone deserves attention.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 8:41 AM   
 By:   Robert0320   (Member)

I believe they were donated to AMPAS

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 9:15 AM   
 By:   Lukas Kendall   (Member)


The orchestrations would probably be at Jo Ann Kane's Music Prep in West L.A. with the Fox library

Lukas

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 11:03 AM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

Thanks for that. From a Google search, apparently NY's Fales Library has got the original sketches for The Proteus, The Chart and Pulmonary Artery.

http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/fales/rosenman.html

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 2:42 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)

Mr Shark, did you interpolate a little ST IV there at the end, or did Rosenman cop from himself 20 yrs later?

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 2:44 PM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

The later, though I prefer the earlier incarnation. Pretty moving stuff nonetheless.

Like Herrmann, Rosenman was a master of self-plagiarism.

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 3:50 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

I just read a great interview with Herrmann where that was brought up, and Herrmann said simply that this was the way he wrote--that the music sounds similar because it's written by the same composer and this is his style-- and the idea that he consciously reused music was nonsense. He also said he basically forgets a score once he's done writing it--and in a weird way I think collectors like us become much more familiar with some of these scores through repeated listening than the composer does. So just the way you and I will likely utter the same sentence numerous times over a lifetime, certainly a composer whose job is to generate thousands upon thousands of notes of music is going to be likely to repeat himself. I'd like to see a comparison of a prolific film composer and a concert composer and see what the proportion of total written (and especially, PERFORMED) notes is. Rosenman reused gestures all the time (there seems to be a kind of brass "tone pyramid" in everything he writes), but they seem to me to be elements of his style and not rehashes of bits and pieces of previous scores. I'm sure that makes me an "apologist" to some of the people around here but I'll take the actual composer's take on the subject (I'm sure Rosenman has said much the same thing that Herrmann said about his own music).

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 4:11 PM   
 By:   That Neil Guy   (Member)

I just read a great interview with Herrmann where that was brought up, and Herrmann said simply that this was the way he wrote--that the music sounds similar because it's written by the same composer and this is his style-- and the idea that he consciously reused music was nonsense.

This reminds me of authors who reuse the same imagery a lot, because it's meaningful to them. Look at John Irving's bears, for instance. It's part of the creative process.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 4:23 PM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

I just read a great interview with Herrmann where that was brought up, and Herrmann said simply that this was the way he wrote--that the music sounds similar because it's written by the same composer and this is his style-- and the idea that he consciously reused music was nonsense. He also said he basically forgets a score once he's done writing it--and in a weird way I think collectors like us become much more familiar with some of these scores through repeated listening than the composer does. So just the way you and I will likely utter the same sentence numerous times over a lifetime, certainly a composer whose job is to generate thousands upon thousands of notes of music is going to be likely to repeat himself. I'd like to see a comparison of a prolific film composer and a concert composer and see what the proportion of total written (and especially, PERFORMED) notes is. Rosenman reused gestures all the time (there seems to be a kind of brass "tone pyramid" in everything he writes), but they seem to me to be elements of his style and not rehashes of bits and pieces of previous scores. I'm sure that makes me an "apologist" to some of the people around here but I'll take the actual composer's take on the subject (I'm sure Rosenman has said much the same thing that Herrmann said about his own music).

Excellent post.

The the thing about the Rosenman's "tone pyramid" gesture, is that it was genuinely influential. I can't count the number of times I've heard that technique in scores from ranging North, to Goldsmith, Williams, or even Leonard Bernstein and Angela Morley. When Rosenman's writing in an Walton-esque expanded tonality, he tends to favour 6/9, Major 7th, Minor 7 and Lydian chords. A classic Silver Age Americana sound, that you can hear in everything from EAST OF EDEN to ROBOCOP 2.

You could compare that to say Herrmann's use of chromatically moving major 3rds, muted strings, stopped horns, or half-diminished 7ths - the famous Tristan chord. He had his own voice, just as Rozsa, Walton and Prokofiev did.

That said, there is some clear evidence of self-borrowing in Herrmann's works. For a detailed list, see Bill Wroebel's article here:

http://www.filmscorerundowns.net/herrmann/sneakpeek2.pdf

Personally I don't have a problem with that. I've got a more of an issue with composer continually ripping off others to the point of parody (i.e. James Horner).

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 4:32 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)

The later, though I prefer the earlier incarnation. Pretty moving stuff nonetheless.

Like Herrmann, Rosenman was a master of self-plagiarism.


Every artist is bound to crib from themselves to some degree, whether it's a whole series of pieces meant to go together (as a series, a cycle, or a period of work) or something just being their style.
I got to the end of your clip and went 'ST IV!'; I just hadn't noticed it before.

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 4:49 PM   
 By:   robertmro   (Member)

They all do it, even the Golden Age master.

In fact I like it because it's their individual style.

You either enjoy their style or you don't.

When they copy someone else, it's another matter.

 
 Posted:   Sep 3, 2011 - 5:19 PM   
 By:   ToneRow   (Member)

Apparently he orchestrated it all himself, because of its extreme atonal polyphony.

I'm under the impression that Leonard Rosenman orchestrated his own scores from when he began in the mid-'50s up to about THE HELLFIGHTERS ('68), the earliest film score of his which I'm aware of whose soundtrack album credits Ralph Ferraro as orchestrator.

From there onwards, I think Ralph Ferraro orchestrated everything else that Rosenman wrote until his final score - JURIJ - which credits Michael Patterson as the orchestrator.

[the credits in FSM's TV OMNIBUS indicate for THE PHANTOM OF HOLLYWOOD that the orchestrators are Ralph Ferraro & Jeff Alexander]

The orchestration alone deserves attention.

I agree.

Hope you were able to get yourself a copy of Intrada's NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC volume 2;
Leonard Rosenman's score for DR. LEAKY AND THE DAWN OF MAN should appeal to you since it is contemporaneous with, as well as similar to, FANTASTIC VOYAGE.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2011 - 12:58 AM   
 By:   TheFamousEccles   (Member)

A little more information for those who might be interested: Leonard did do much of the orchestration on his early film scores - several cues in "Rebel Without a Cause," [and maybe "East of Eden," though I don't readily recall - so please don't quote me regarding that film] were orchestrated by Maurice dePackh. I know that Leo Arnaud had a hand in helping orchestrate "Fantastic Voyage," - though having seen the sketches at the Fales collection, Leonard's original cues are incredibly complete in construction and instrumentation indication. He had more cues, but they'd suffered quite a bit of water damage, and are fairly unreadable - at least when I saw them.

Ralph Ferraro's first bit of orchestration for Leonard was the version of the "East of Eden" theme that's on "The Chapman Report" album - from there he quickly became his go-to orchestrator.

Still, Leonard orchestrated all of his concert work himself - from the Chamber Symphony that provided the basis for his wonderful "The Savage Eye," to his Violin Concerto II, which he used "RoboCop 2" as a laboratory for (the use of four female vocalists sitting with the woodwinds, some of the more lyrical ideas - and there's actually an eight bar section in the third movement that is a re-orchestrated version of one of the agitato passages from the "RoboCop Overture," as well. And of course, there's all the great concert music he wrote before, after and in-between the two works I've singled out here.

In any event, "Fantastic Voyage" is a marvelous score - and I would agree with the original poster that it has definitely influenced the composers who relish writing dense klangfarben type passages. The fact that he can tie all of those atonal passages with a simple four-note motif that is simultaneously alien and utterly hummable is really quite a marvel of construction. I may post more on this score and so forth later - as it's a big personal favorite (as are the rest of the Rosenman oeuvre.)

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2011 - 10:14 AM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

A little more information for those who might be interested: Leonard did do much of the orchestration on his early film scores - several cues in "Rebel Without a Cause," [and maybe "East of Eden," though I don't readily recall - so please don't quote me regarding that film] were orchestrated by Maurice dePackh. I know that Leo Arnaud had a hand in helping orchestrate "Fantastic Voyage," - though having seen the sketches at the Fales collection, Leonard's original cues are incredibly complete in construction and instrumentation indication. He had more cues, but they'd suffered quite a bit of water damage, and are fairly unreadable - at least when I saw them.

Thanks for the tip-off. I'm considering ordering xeroxes from the Fales collection through UPS, and it'd be helpful know how complete and/or legible they are. Would I be able to follow the first three orchestral cues on the FSM CD with the sketches? The orchestration is incredibly detailed, using Klangfarben like you say, with huge dissonant chords stacked over 3 or 4 octaves.

That said, it'd be nice if the remaining cues turned up somewhere. Especially stuff like "Channel To Ear", "Cora Trapped", and "The Human Brain." Rosenman's antibody music is some of the scariest I've ever heard.

I've always wondered. Are there any aleatory passages (i.e. repeat note/s as fast possible, glissando to highest pitch, hit low/clusters on piano etc.), microtonality and tone clusters in it? I know in his Double Bass Concerto and some later works included that, but not sure if he was doing it in the 60s.

Is there an identifiable 12 tone row for this score as with Goldsmith's PLANET OF THE APES, or is it freely atonal?

Ralph Ferraro's first bit of orchestration for Leonard was the version of the "East of Eden" theme that's on "The Chapman Report" album - from there he quickly became his go-to orchestrator.

Still, Leonard orchestrated all of his concert work himself - from the Chamber Symphony that provided the basis for his wonderful "The Savage Eye," to his Violin Concerto II, which he used "RoboCop 2" as a laboratory for (the use of four female vocalists sitting with the woodwinds, some of the more lyrical ideas - and there's actually an eight bar section in the third movement that is a re-orchestrated version of one of the agitato passages from the "RoboCop Overture," as well. And of course, there's all the great concert music he wrote before, after and in-between the two works I've singled out here.

In any event, "Fantastic Voyage" is a marvelous score - and I would agree with the original poster that it has definitely influenced the composers who relish writing dense klangfarben type passages. The fact that he can tie all of those atonal passages with a simple four-note motif that is simultaneously alien and utterly hummable is really quite a marvel of construction. I may post more on this score and so forth later - as it's a big personal favorite (as are the rest of the Rosenman oeuvre.)


I think staying in Rome and conducting contemporary works for all those years helped a lot. Gave a perspective that a lot of Hollywood film composers lacked.

 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2011 - 10:23 AM   
 By:   goldsmith-rulez   (Member)

Now, that's not a fair statement. I don't think that the most distinguished of Hollywod composers "lacked perspective" in any way - they just thought, and they were right, that you can't score a commercial motion picture with music à la manière de Stockhausen.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2011 - 10:27 AM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

Now, that's not a fair statement. I don't think that the most distinguished of Hollywod composers "lacked perspective" in any way - they just thought, and they were right, that you can't score a commercial motion picture with music à la manière de Stockhausen.

Well, I think it's fair to say the vast majority of Hollywood composers weren't equipped with technical facility to score a picture in the style of Stockhausen or Scelsi, or simply rejected the avant garde.

 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2011 - 10:39 AM   
 By:   DavidinBerkeley   (Member)


I've always wondered. Are there any aleatory passages (i.e. repeat note/s as fast possible, glissando to highest pitch, hit low/clusters on piano etc.), microtonality and tone clusters in it? I know in his Double Bass Concerto and some later works included that, but not sure if he was doing it in the 60s.



If these things interest you, Mr. S, you might want to explore ALTERED STATES by John Corigliano. When I got to look at the score, I saw at least one "written in" aleatory portion (in the finale).

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 4, 2011 - 1:37 PM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)


I've always wondered. Are there any aleatory passages (i.e. repeat note/s as fast possible, glissando to highest pitch, hit low/clusters on piano etc.), microtonality and tone clusters in it? I know in his Double Bass Concerto and some later works included that, but not sure if he was doing it in the 60s.



If these things interest you, Mr. S, you might want to explore ALTERED STATES by John Corigliano. When I got to look at the score, I saw at least one "written in" aleatory portion (in the finale).


I've got it, terrific score. Aleatory writing's all of it, in every single cue.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2011 - 9:18 AM   
 By:   Mr. Shark   (Member)

Bump.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 5, 2011 - 7:56 PM   
 By:   TheFamousEccles   (Member)

Hello, Mr. Shark,

It's been about a year and a half since I was at Fales, so please don't take what I say here as gospel, but - yes, you should be able the sketches and CD with no problem. They are incredibly legible, with nice, clear note-heads, and fading due to age was minimal. In terms of detail, I seem to recall them being quite detailed, featuring everything that was being played, with instrumental indications (it almost looks like a copyist's short-score in that regard).

In terms of aleatory, I don't recall seeing anything like that in the sketches, but again, like I say, my memory is somewhat hazy on that matter. I do recall, however, being taken slightly aback by just how incredibly, finely structured and complete those cues and sketches were. The other cues that Leonard had are in another small holding of material, but, as I said, they were waterdamaged photocopies that are essentially illegible. I'm pretty certain that the complete score is housed - as no less an authority than Lukas Kendall said - at the 20th Century Fox music library.

Yes, I love the antibody music, too - and the crystalline writing in the introduction to the brain - and of course, the "return" to tonality (though, since the whole score to that point is essentially atonal, it's more of an "arrival" than a "return," I suppose. Now I'm just splitting hairs) is a marvelous musical catharsis. One interesting thing, relating to the closing pyramid, is that that device was often Leonard's way of leaving his "signature" in the music itself - where he was - in a manner - spelling his name musically, not so much in terms of the pitches themselves, but the number of them and so forth. I always thought that was pretty nifty, and it gave me a new appreciation and fondness for his use of that gesture.

Apart from the actual "Proteus" motif (that four-note idea with the wide-intervallic relationship - which he usually takes into different resolving ideas each time it appears) I can't think of any consistent, cue-to-cue row development offhand. It's been a while since I've closely listened to the score (forshame!) but there is probably some unique tone-row material in individual cues - for whatever reason "Get the Laser," is the one cue that comes readily to mind regarding that - but, please don't quote me on that right now.

A story I believe I've told elsewhere was about Leonard conducting the first cue that was recorded for the picture - a rather elaborate one, naturally. David Raksin was there, and watched as Leonard conducted this cue with the orchestra, hitting every sync point in the one take. Raksin quipped: "Looks like you found the right conductor for this one."

And yes, you're absolutely right, his time working with the Santa Cecilia Orchestra and Dallapiccola played into his work around this time in a big way - but what also shines through in "Fantastic Voyage" was his time studying with Roger Sessions. The orchestral colors and so forth, definitely have a Sessions influence, too - which continued throughout his film work. Michael Patterson, who orchestrated "Jurij" (Leonard's last film score) told me that he kept a copy of Sessions' Second Symphony on hand when he was orchestrating the score, as a sort of blueprint for his orchestration.

Hope this helps, and that I didn't go on too much. Apologies if I did.

 
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