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My point of reference, or "comparison" when listening to music, is not "albums" but rather compositions, at least when composed by classically trained composers like Leonard Rosenman or Jerry Goldsmith. (That may be because I listen to more classical music then film music.) These types of film scores are more like a symphonic poem or an opera (STAR WARS certainly is just opera without songs), and very often, they actually play best when in (more or less) complete and chronological form, simply because the cues were written in a way that they build upon each other. So to me, they are not "albums" but "compositions", just like "Mahler's 9th" is a composition and Ravel's Daphnis & Chloe is a composition, even if they are all released on "albums", of course.
Some earlier film scores soundtrack albums were just a collection of highlights (like a "best of" Verdi's AIDA etc.) that revealed their more formal musical arc once they were actually released more complete and in film order, so they became fleshed out and more "classical" compositions.
While I also agree that it should not be up to the buyer of an album to figure which order of cues is the best for standalone listing, my experience with soundtracks over the years has shown me that when it comes to deciding what to include in what order on soundtrack albums, I am more qualified than many of those who actually produced some of the soundtrack albums. So while in an ideal world every film score album release is perfect, in the real world, I'd rather have the option to "correct" those releases that were done "wrong". :-)
Also, perhaps because film music is just a part of the music I listen to, I think a film score is a "film score", just like an opera is an opera or a symphony is a symphony. I don't need a film score to be "something else" when I listen to it. I actually listen to film scores when I want to listen to film scores, that's the idea. :-)
But some film scores play perfectly fine when not "complete" or "chronological", so I'm certainly not dogmatic about it and think it's a case by case decision.
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Posted: |
Oct 24, 2020 - 11:24 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Maybe all that is needed is for a one or more producing "artists" to present a track-order list in the booklet that would represent what that artist thinks would be an optimal listening experience.
Sure, if that's at all possible. But sometimes, composers actually micro-edit the cues to alllow for better flow, and that can't be achieved by simply re-organizing the film cues into a proper listening order.
Also, perhaps because film music is just a part of the music I listen to, I think a film score is a "film score", just like an opera is an opera or a symphony is a symphony. I don't need a film score to be "something else" when I listen to it. I actually listen to film scores when I want to listen to film scores, that's the idea. :-)
It's interesting that you do not address the issue of the music moving from one medium to another. In most other circumstances, a form of adaption is needed. It wouldn't make any sense to film all the scenes of LOTR in the book's order, nor even to choose all the scenes from the book. But for some reason, you give film music a 'carte blanche' in that respect.
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Posted: |
Oct 24, 2020 - 11:28 AM
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By: |
Col. Flagg
(Member)
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Also, perhaps because film music is just a part of the music I listen to, I think a film score is a "film score", just like an opera is an opera or a symphony is a symphony. I don't need a film score to be "something else" when I listen to it. I actually listen to film scores when I want to listen to film scores, that's the idea. :-)
It's interesting that you do not address the issue of the music moving from one medium to another. In most other circumstances, a form of adaption is needed. It wouldn't make any sense to film all the scenes of LOTR in the book's order, nor even to choose all the scenes from the book. But for some reason, you give film music a 'carte blanche' in that respect.
Because it's drama, and if the music is good, it has its own, innate dramatic architecture. Not all film scores have this – and not ironically, those that don't usually are more curiosities to me and not ones I want to own or listen to often.
That architecture is why I welcome the Goldsmith expansions: they're incredibly enhanced by a C&C presentation.
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Also, perhaps because film music is just a part of the music I listen to, I think a film score is a "film score", just like an opera is an opera or a symphony is a symphony. I don't need a film score to be "something else" when I listen to it. I actually listen to film scores when I want to listen to film scores, that's the idea. :-)
It's interesting that you do not address the issue of the music moving from one medium to another. In most other circumstances, a form of adaption is needed. It wouldn't make any sense to film all the scenes of LOTR in the book's order, nor even to choose all the scenes from the book. But for some reason, you give film music a 'carte blanche' in that respect.
Because it is not an adaptation. If you adapt the Lord of the Rings from a book to a movie, you are indeed adapting it. A book is something different from a movie. But music is music. When I listen to an opera on a CD without all the visuals and acting singers and costumes and stage and sounds, I am still listening to the opera, and when I listen to a film score without all the visuals and actors and costumes etc, I am still listening to a film score.
Now a film score CAN be adapted into something else, and that is perfectly fine, like Michael Nyman's THE PIANO concerto based on his film score or John Corligiano's Chaconne based on his film score for THE RED VIOLIN, or Christopher Young's KILLING SEASON as basically a cello concerto etc, and that is great, that's fine, by all means more of that... just as an opera score CAN be adapted into something else. Or a violin concerto like Rózsa's can be adapted into a film score, that is fine too. But you can also just listen to an opera or a film score without it being adapted into something else, just as you can listen to the Violin Concerto by Rózsa, or its adaptation into a film score. I enjoy both.
But regardless, when I listen to John Williams music for STAR WARS, I sure listen to a film score and not to an adaptation of a film score.
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Posted: |
Oct 24, 2020 - 11:43 AM
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By: |
Col. Flagg
(Member)
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Both film and music have drama. Both opera and ballet have drama. Both literature and theatre have drama. It's all drama. But it works on different levels. When you move a piece of drama from one medium to another, you adapt it. You make changes. You make sure that it works optimally within its new medium. What was perfect "dramatic architecture" in a film, isn't necessarily that when you move it to album.
On that, I disagree. Highlights – which is what most film music albums are, pre-2000s, are not inherently dramatic. (In fact, those 30 minute Varese albums were often dramatic in how hopelessly inert they were.) If anything, a highlights-only presentation more of then than not interrupts the intent of the drama – and one's memory of the film.
But look, I'm not dogmatic about this. I often don't have enough time to enjoy a C&C version, so if I just want a taste, I'll skip to album version if that's available in my library. But what I look for in my film music is an arc, a journey – and most albums don't reflect the journey, it's a simple as that.
... which I guess takes us back full circle to Onya's thesis?
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Posted: |
Oct 24, 2020 - 11:50 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Now a film score CAN be adapted into something else, and that is perfectly fine, like Michael Nyman's THE PIANO concerto based on his film score or John Corligiano's Chaconne based on his film score for THE RED VIOLIN, or Christopher Young's KILLING SEASON as basically a cello concerto etc, and that is great, that's fine, by all means more of that... just as an opera score CAN be adapted into something else. Or a violin concerto like Rózsa's can be adapted into a film score, that is fine too. But you can also just listen to an opera or a film score without it being adapted into something else, just as you can listen to the Violin Concerto by Rózsa, or its adaptation into a film score. I enjoy both.
This delineation is interesting to me. You seem to accept those, but not 'regular' scores. A medium transition is a medium transition. Yes, it's still music, but it now works outside its context. For example, there could be a stretch of musical cues that are rather 'samey' due to the film's scenes, whereas one would normally 'cut away' or move to different musical ideas in a purely musical setting. It's CRUCIAL that the producers of the album takes this into consideration. There is absolutely no - ZERO - difference to me between someone adapting a film score to a concert suite, or adapting it to an album format.
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I am astounded that after decades of lamenting incomplete soundtrack releases, people are now lamenting complete soundtrack releases. Genuinely unbelievable stuff.
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Also, a C&C album is not as "unfinished" album. The artistic choice was made to preserve the intent of the composer when creating the score.
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