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For example, STAR WARS sounds nothing like Korngold or Rozsa, even though there are elements in APPROACH that are similar.
I was coming from the angle of stylistic approach myself. I don't think John Williams actually "re-uses" much of anything from previous scores (the "Psycho house" quote excepted) but the style of Star Wars intentionally apes Korngold and Rozsa (I recall reading Ivanhoe was in SW's temp track).
Another example would be Witness, in which Maurice Jarre sounds more like Vangelis than himself, yet does not "re-use" anything specific from Vangelis's works.
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Oh, there are huge Goldsmith swipes in BRAINSTORM. In fact (yes, "in fact!") there are huge Goldsmith swipes in the majority of Horner's early scores. WOLFEN borrows from, or "imitates" ALIEN and Charles Ives, as do the suspense cues from the climax to 48 HOURS. BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS is modelled on STAR TREK: TMP and PATTON. The list goes on and on. It's interesting how Christopher Young later seemed to combine a "Horner-channelled-through-Goldsmith" sound in HELLRAISER 2 especially (I think).
But I think I'm misunderstanding the original question, because we must have had endless discussions about this before. I'm just responding, kind of in a brain-dead way, with my ideas of wot sounds like wot. Now I'm too tired to go on.
Oh, and CAPRICORN ONE is even in TITANIC!
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Tall Guy, your interpretation that Jerry Goldsmith was "doing" John Barry in POWDER may be down to its being one of Goldsmith's 90s streamlined scores. I think it was Lukas Kendall himself who first pointed out, all those years ago, how Goldsmith was kind of turning into John Barry, having got rid of all those little ornamental percussion devices and abandoning the note-crunching.
And I've thought of another Horner-does-Goldsmith, but I'll need to ask for confirmation... In HUMANOIDS FROM THE DEEP I remember a scared girl with her tits out being chased by a man in a rubber suit. That image stuck with me over the last 30 years, as did the music. I'm not sure if it was Horner sounding like THE SWARM or if it was actually THE SWARM tracked in. That's how similar it was. Anyone?
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Criswell should have predicted that James Horner would come up eventually.
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Posted: |
Jul 9, 2010 - 6:59 AM
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By: |
barryfan1
(Member)
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Tall Guy, your interpretation that Jerry Goldsmith was "doing" John Barry in POWDER may be down to its being one of Goldsmith's 90s streamlined scores. I think it was Lukas Kendall himself who first pointed out, all those years ago, how Goldsmith was kind of turning into John Barry, having got rid of all those little ornamental percussion devices and abandoning the note-crunching.
And I've thought of another Horner-does-Goldsmith, but I'll need to ask for confirmation... In HUMANOIDS FROM THE DEEP I remember a scared girl with her tits out being chased by a man in a rubber suit. That image stuck with me over the last 30 years, as did the music. I'm not sure if it was Horner sounding like THE SWARM or if it was actually THE SWARM tracked in. That's how similar it was. Anyone?
I always felt Goldsmith was doing a 'Barry' with The Last Run, which is one of my favourite Goldsmith scores. Surely (I know, don't call you Shirley), most obvious one is Arnold doing Barry, particularly on Tomorrow Never Dies, and Horner doing a Barry (Dances With Wolves) on Legends of the Fall (ducks for cover, LOL).
Mike
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Hmm, just thought of another. There's hope for my amoeba brain yet. I always thought that THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was an extremely strange entry in Elmer B's filmography, especially as it comes from the early stages of his career when he was part of the whole "new sound" revolution. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS sounds retro even for the mid-50s, and is, to my ears, very uncharacteristic of him.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Victor Young was going to do the score, and when he died, Bernstein was asked to write something in his style. Is that the story? Seems to make sense, hearing the result.
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Posted: |
Jul 9, 2010 - 10:52 AM
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By: |
Ed Nassour
(Member)
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Hmm, just thought of another. There's hope for my amoeba brain yet. I always thought that THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was an extremely strange entry in Elmer B's filmography, especially as it comes from the early stages of his career when he was part of the whole "new sound" revolution. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS sounds retro even for the mid-50s, and is, to my ears, very uncharacteristic of him.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Victor Young was going to do the score, and when he died, Bernstein was asked to write something in his style. Is that the story? Seems to make sense, hearing the result.
Victor Young was supposed to score the film. But after he died, Elmer was hired and told by DeMille to compose in the style of Young. Supposedly, Young did compose a few pieces, one being the overture heard in the film.
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Posted: |
Jul 9, 2010 - 8:51 PM
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By: |
Marlene
(Member)
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Hi Guys!
I don´t think that they were imitating particularly from each other. It´s more that all our beloved composers were and are influenced by classical composers - exactly like Dimitri Tiomkin stated in his acceptance speach. He exaggerated of course, that´s what made it funny. Because every composer (Goldsmith, Williams, Silvestri, Zimmer and so on) has its own style in which he/she composes. They are only influenced towards another style - their own style still is observable. Take Jerry Goldsmith for example: despite his usage of many different styles over the years you can tell that it´s always him. He had a distinctive way to handle harmonies, counterpoint or rhythm. The music by older, classical composers is simply a "blanket" or a perfume that hides what is underneath. And since some material can be put to better use in movies compared to other material... why is it, that so many composers "imitate" The Planets from Gustav Holst? For one because it´s popular, it is good and it serves a picture well. So there you have the similarities. But have you heard many score that are impressionistic in style? I can only think of one so far and it´s because this style doesn´t fit well with its airy, heavy orchestration.
It´s a different case however when someone wants a clear reference. Right now I´m thinking of Barry´s "Space March" - you can find countless hommages in filmmusic (David Arnold in "Godzilla", Jerry Goldsmith in "First Contact" (The Dish), George S. Clinton in "Austin Powers"). These references are mostly done because of a specific reason, maybe the composer likes the piece or intends it to be funny or simply because he wants to bow his head out of respect. Another reason for a filmmusic composer to obviously imitate another composer is that a former approach may also work for the current work the "imitator" composes. And since time seems always to be the essence, the composer can save a few minutes here and there.
Furthermore, let´s be honest here: filmmusic tends to be a bit ecclectic and that is good that way. You see, I think you would stress the audience very much if you always try something new. For filmmusic to work you have to use styles, material or compositions that are known or popular in order to create an emotional reaction from the audience. Regarding these limitations the tricky part seems to be still being original while being influenced. Some composers can do it better, others just can´t.
BTW, my first post. Fascinating board you have here! 
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Posted: |
Jul 9, 2010 - 8:57 PM
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By: |
Ed Nassour
(Member)
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Hi Guys!
I don´t think that they were imitating particularly from each other. It´s more that all our beloved composers were and are influenced by classical composers - exactly like Dimitri Tiomkin stated in his acceptance speach. He exaggerated of course, that´s what made it funny. Because every composer (Goldsmith, Williams, Silvestri, Zimmer and so on) has its own style in which he/she composes. They are only influenced towards another style - their own style still is observable. Take Jerry Goldsmith for example: despite his usage of many different styles over the years you can tell that it´s always him. He had a distinctive way to handle harmonies, counterpoint or rhythm. The music by older, classical composers is simply a "blanket" or a perfume that hides what is underneath. And since some material can be put to better use in movies compared to other material... why is it, that so many composers "imitate" The Planets from Gustav Holst? For one because it´s popular, it is good and it serves a picture well. So there you have the similarities. But have you heard many score that are impressionistic in style? I can only think of one so far and it´s because this style doesn´t fit well with its airy, heavy orchestration.
It´s a different case however when someone wants a clear reference. Right now I´m thinking of Barry´s "Space March" - you can find countless hommages in filmmusic (David Arnold in "Godzilla", Jerry Goldsmith in "First Contact" (The Dish), George S. Clinton in "Austin Powers"). These references are mostly done because of a specific reason, maybe the composer likes the piece or intends it to be funny or simply because he wants to bow his head out of respect. Another reason for a filmmusic composer to obviously imitate another composer is that a former approach may also work for the current work the "imitator" composes. And since time seems always to be the essence, the composer can save a few minutes here and there.
Furthermore, let´s be honest here: filmmusic tends to be a bit ecclectic and that is good that way. You see, I think you would stress the audience very much if you always try something new. For filmmusic to work you have to use styles, material or compositions that are known or popular in order to create an emotional reaction from the audience. Regarding these limitations the tricky part seems to be still being original while being influenced. Some composers can do it better, others just can´t.
BTW, my first post. Fascinating board you have here!
Welcome aboard! Wonderfully stated.
Goldsmith was a marvelous film composer. Today I watched "City Hall" which has a superb Goldsmith score. His music worked perfectly in the film and works away from it as well.
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Ah!, CITY HALL, Rich. Was that the one where Goldsmith was asked to imitate Leonard Bernstein's ON THE WATERFRONT? Or am I thinking of L.A. CONFIDENTIAL...
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