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Love that score, including the bird calls (hey, if Respighi got away with it, why not Horner?)
The use of Wagner music in that movie was atrociously distractive, and I love Wagner's music. But in that movie, it just pulled me out to the point of where I just thought WTF Rheingold WTF all the time?
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That just goes to show how different reactions to music can be... for me, Wagner and Mozart in that movie ruined it for me, it really hurt. They could have used Star Wars and it would have been a better fit.
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I prefer the FYC, because my favorite cue from the film isn't on the commercial album. It's titled "Rolfe Proposes 1" on the FYC.
Either way, I love the music as it appears in the film. I think Malick used just the right amount of Horner in just the right places.
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I just hope that Malick doesn't use Wagner and Mozart in his next film The Last Planet. But then again it can't be worse than what
George Stevens did to The Greatest Story Ever Told with Handel and Verdi....
In George Stevens' case, I could at least see what he was trying to do, even though I agree that Alfred Newman's music would have made a much better fit. But at least I got the idea. I have to admit I didn't get the idea in THE NEW WORLD; what was the point he wanted to make with Wagner or Mozart there? And I'm not merely talking about the music being anachronistic (Wagner would be born two centuries after the events of this movie take place), that's ok, I just did not see what the point was? Indeed, I'd have much preferred Horner's music within the context of this picture.
I grew up with the music of Wagner and Mozart among others being regularly played at our home. And I have no problem when Wagner is used in movies, Wagner's music is basically film music anyway. I enjoyed it in EXCALIBUR, but it really threw me completely out of THE NEW WORLD. I get that Malick isn't interested in classic linear story telling and does his own thing, and yes, classical music can be used to great effect in movies, but the mixture of Horner, Mozart, Wagner... that was just like a dish made with strawberry jam, blue cheese, and almond vinegar... I like all the components, but not in that mixture. That was my personal reaction to it, obviously others may differ.
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Posted: |
Mar 31, 2020 - 4:02 AM
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By: |
tobid
(Member)
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I think the use of Wagner operates on at least two levels. One is a more conscious one, if you know the piece beforehand, i.e. underlining the mythological/universal scope of the love story by using the Rheingold vorspiel. Second are the sonorities themselves, delicate and sweeping, underlining the scene in question (correct me if I misremember, but I believe it was used while Smith and Pocahontas walk through a field, exploring each other and their feelings for each other).
It's actually that mythological level that bugs me. I agree that on a purely aesthetical level the music works wonderfully with the images. But I fail to see the mythological correspondence between the Ring Operas and Pocahontas, especially in Malick's rather realistic take on the story. If you want to spell out the meaning of love, there are better suited examples in Wagner's ouvre. However, I gernerally think of Malick as a director who's much more concerned about the immediate emotion music conveys than the deeper inner meaning it adds to the story.
Love Horner's score by the way, even the song is great (the absence of pop rhythms helping a lot).
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I think the scenes when Smith and Pocahontas walk through the fields are mostly Mozart's piano concerto #23, Wagner's Rhinegold was used in the more epic scenes, like the opening scenes, when they went down the river. But it could have underlined a few Smith/Pocahontas scenes as well, don't remember for sure.
I thought the music was overwhelming the visuals, especially when compared to how well Horner's score would have worked. (And I am by no means saying that Horner's TNW score is better than Wagner's Rhinegold, just that it would have fit better into the movie.)
I did not like the Mozart in the movie either, because that was so cut up. It is a beautiful piano concerto, but I disliked it in snippets, it just started with a few bars, and then faded again, I really experienced that effect as annoying, as in either play the damn thing or don't... but this on-and-off playing of a few bars was painful.
However, it just goes to show how people can have very different reactions to the same music in a film scene.
I still liked the movie -- to a point --, it was gorgeously photographed and I enjoyed that it took its time and the many nature scenes, but it could have been a much, much better movie were it not for its music selections and the partly poor editing.
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Posted: |
Mar 31, 2020 - 4:59 AM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Just curious, Nicolai: Do you have a general opposition towards the use of existing music (or classical music, in particular) in films, or is it just Malick's approach in this particular case?
Personally, I've always loved his peace-meal approach to inserting these pieces in his films. Some times, they have a 'double' meaning (as in creating new meaning out of the piece's existing associations and its new filmic context), other times it's merely for texture, sound and emotion. TREE OF LIFE, for example, is something to get truly lost in, in that sense, as it applies both aspects beautifully.
I think you may be right in that in this particular case, it's used more for sonorities than meaning, especially if it's used in the epic scenes and not the field scene I had in mind (I haven't seen the film in ages, so I would need to rewatch it to grasp any particular meaning).
For a brilliant use of Wagner's "Rheingold" music - ripe with meaning if you know the piece -- look no further than ALIEN: COVENANT. That's almost TOO on-the-nose, but oh, so wonderful.
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Posted: |
Mar 31, 2020 - 6:04 AM
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By: |
Nono
(Member)
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I think the use of Wagner operates on at least two levels. One is a more conscious one, if you know the piece beforehand, i.e. underlining the mythological/universal scope of the love story by using the Rheingold vorspiel. Second are the sonorities themselves, delicate and sweeping, underlining the scene in question (correct me if I misremember, but I believe it was used while Smith and Pocahontas walk through a field, exploring each other and their feelings for each other).
It's actually that mythological level that bugs me. I agree that on a purely aesthetical level the music works wonderfully with the images. But I fail to see the mythological correspondence between the Ring Operas and Pocahontas, especially in Malick's rather realistic take on the story. If you want to spell out the meaning of love, there are better suited examples in Wagner's ouvre. However, I gernerally think of Malick as a director who's much more concerned about the immediate emotion music conveys than the deeper inner meaning it adds to the story.
The use of Wagner's Ring is really intelligent, even if it's the Prelude which is used, it's the Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla that we must have in mind for the first scene of the movie. And Pocahontas can be seen as a girl from the Rhine too. I don't know very well the plot of the four operas, but there are certainly many interesting links to do.
I didn't like the movie, though. But I do like Horner's score, and I like the natural sounds used. Nicolai mentioned Respighi, but we can also think about Rautavaara and his Cantus Arcticus, and Yoshimatsu who doesn't use such sounds in his music but actually often portrays birds, Horner's score being reminiscent of him and other "new age" classical composers.
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Just curious, Nicolai: Do you have a general opposition towards the use of existing music (or classical music, in particular) in films, or is it just Malick's approach in this particular case?
Personally, I've always loved his peace-meal approach to inserting these pieces in his films. Some times, they have a 'double' meaning (as in creating new meaning out of the piece's existing associations and its new filmic context), other times it's merely for texture, sound and emotion. TREE OF LIFE, for example, is something to get truly lost in, in that sense, as it applies both aspects beautifully.
I think you may be right in that in this particular case, it's used more for sonorities than meaning, especially if it's used in the epic scenes and not the field scene I had in mind (I haven't seen the film in ages, so I would need to rewatch it to grasp any particular meaning).
For a brilliant use of Wagner's "Rheingold" music - ripe with meaning if you know the piece -- look no further than ALIEN: COVENANT. That's almost TOO on-the-nose, but oh, so wonderful.
Curiosity is a good personality trait, Thor. :-)
That is a legitimate question in such a discussion, so here it goes: I don't have a general opposition towards the use of existing music in films, neither classical music in particular nor any other music in general.
It is indeed THE NEW WORLD I have particular problems with, where I dislike the use of the music. As I said, I did not mind Orff and Wagner in EXCALIBUR, or the use of classical music in 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY was very effective, or Tarantino's choice of needle dropping songs for PULP FICTION worked very well too.
Before I ever saw the movie, I knew James Horner's score and I knew Malick replaced more than half of it with Wagner and Mozart. I was willing to wait and see, but it just did not click (for me).
I have not seen TREE OF LIFE yet, but am definitely going to. It's on my "want to see" list.
Have not seen ALIEN: COVENANT either, did not know there is Rheingold in there, but there was Mozart (as source music, but still functioning much like film music) in ALIEN, I did not mind that either.
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Posted: |
Mar 31, 2020 - 12:13 PM
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By: |
tobid
(Member)
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I think the use of Wagner operates on at least two levels. One is a more conscious one, if you know the piece beforehand, i.e. underlining the mythological/universal scope of the love story by using the Rheingold vorspiel. Second are the sonorities themselves, delicate and sweeping, underlining the scene in question (correct me if I misremember, but I believe it was used while Smith and Pocahontas walk through a field, exploring each other and their feelings for each other).
It's actually that mythological level that bugs me. I agree that on a purely aesthetical level the music works wonderfully with the images. But I fail to see the mythological correspondence between the Ring Operas and Pocahontas, especially in Malick's rather realistic take on the story. If you want to spell out the meaning of love, there are better suited examples in Wagner's ouvre. However, I gernerally think of Malick as a director who's much more concerned about the immediate emotion music conveys than the deeper inner meaning it adds to the story.
The use of Wagner's Ring is really intelligent, even if it's the Prelude which is used, it's the Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla that we must have in mind for the first scene of the movie. And Pocahontas can be seen as a girl from the Rhine too. I don't know very well the plot of the four operas, but there are certainly many interesting links to do.
But then why does he not use the Entrance Scene in the first place? And even if Malick does want to create some (probably ironic) equality between the settlers and the gods, why doesn't he develop this link in any way, for example by using music from Gotterdämmerung (the last part of the Nibelung saga) later in the movie?
Same goes for Pocahontas as a girl from the Rhine. I can see where you get that connection. But I don't think anyone would have ever come up with it without Wagner's music, which again begs the question why this idea isn't developed in any way over the course of the movie if it is indeed Malick's intention fot the audience to make that very connection.
It all feels very random to me, and every explanation I have read or thought about ends up in threads that go nowhere when you look at the picture as a whole.
I can see the Nietzsche connection all over 2001. I can see Wagnerian ideas in Alien Covenant (though I had forgotten the music was used there, so thanks for the reminder, Thor). But I just don't see anything but snippets of ideas of Wagnerian mythology in The New World. Purely subjective, but to me it all feels like music Malick enjoys thrown in to enhance the emotions conveyed in the images.
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Posted: |
Mar 31, 2020 - 12:58 PM
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By: |
Nono
(Member)
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But then why does he not use the Entrance Scene in the first place? And even if Malick does want to create some (probably ironic) equality between the settlers and the gods, why doesn't he develop this link in any way, for example by using music from Gotterdämmerung (the last part of the Nibelung saga) later in the movie?
Same goes for Pocahontas as a girl from the Rhine. I can see where you get that connection. But I don't think anyone would have ever come up with it without Wagner's music, which again begs the question why this idea isn't developed in any way over the course of the movie if it is indeed Malick's intention fot the audience to make that very connection.
It all feels very random to me, and every explanation I have read or thought about ends up in threads that go nowhere when you look at the picture as a whole.
I don't remember very well the movie but I agree with you, and it's why I didn't like it. Malick had a good idea to link his own story with the Ring but actually failed, because he didn't develop this idea very well in his movie.
But the connection is here, because the title of the movie is also probably related to "the new world" to come after the end of the Gods and Valhalla.
I should watch the movie again, and open my Ring librettos.
It won't make the movie any better, though.
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