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 Posted:   Sep 17, 2021 - 7:21 PM   
 By:   jskoda   (Member)

Watched a few minutes of a ballet version on PBS tonight of THE RED SHOES, and thought I recognized the music from the CITIZEN KANE song in a scene. It turns out the whole ballet score was adapted from Bernard Herrmann's film music.

PBS currently has the whole thing on its site.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 17, 2021 - 7:50 PM   
 By:   .   (Member)

Thanks for posting this.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 17, 2021 - 8:30 PM   
 By:   eriknelson   (Member)

I remember reading about this when it premiered. Can't wait to see it. However, I can only wonder how Benny would have reacted to having his music lifted and placed in another work.

One hint might be found in the story Brian de Palma told about the time they first screened SISTERS for Herrmann. They started playing temp tracks of Herrmann's music and he blew up. Big mistake!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 5:38 AM   
 By:   TerraEpon   (Member)

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=114620&forumID=1&archive=0

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 6:33 AM   
 By:   jskoda   (Member)

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=114620&forumID=1&archive=0

Thanks. I was pretty sure there must have been something about it before on this board.

I don't know ballet so I can't assess that part of it, but it's sure fun as an extensive "name that film score" game!

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 8:11 AM   
 By:   Tony J   (Member)

Watched a few minutes of a ballet version on PBS tonight of THE RED SHOES, and thought I recognized the music from the CITIZEN KANE song in a scene. It turns out the whole ballet score was adapted from Bernard Herrmann's film music.

PBS currently has the whole thing on its site.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/


I began watching it last night out of curiosity, but was only able to make it through about 25 minutes. Very pretentious and totally lacking in magic which the original 1948 film has in spades. The opening has music from The Ghost and Mrs. Muir as does a scene about 20 minutes in. I heard smatterings of Hangover Square and Citizen Kane. I hate the new orchestrations.

When I have more patience, I'll go back and watch the rest of it.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 10:21 AM   
 By:   jonathan_little   (Member)

I watched it. Dancing isn't really a thing I seek out, but I have been to live performances that I have enjoyed. It was an interesting reuse of Herrmann's music, but it was a bit of a chore to watch.

Most of the music was from the 1940s (including Citizen Kane, Ghost & Mrs. Muir, Hangover Square, All that Money Can Buy) with the exception of Fahrenheit 451. One dance piece I wasn't familiar with at all. The end credits music from Citizen Kane (more Salinger than Herrmann IMO) was used way too much, the second time they started a scene to that I just fast forwarded through it. I haven't seen The Red Shoes film, so the plot to me seemed like a distilling of the first half of Moulin Rouge. The music was feeling a bit repetitive by the end, taking a 30 second cue and repeating it three or four times was draining to listen to, even for a fan of Herrmann like me.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 1:17 PM   
 By:   roadshowfan   (Member)

Watched a few minutes of a ballet version on PBS tonight of THE RED SHOES, and thought I recognized the music from the CITIZEN KANE song in a scene. It turns out the whole ballet score was adapted from Bernard Herrmann's film music.

PBS currently has the whole thing on its site.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/


I began watching it last night out of curiosity, but was only able to make it through about 25 minutes. Very pretentious and totally lacking in magic which the original 1948 film has in spades. The opening has music from The Ghost and Mrs. Muir as does a scene about 20 minutes in. I heard smatterings of Hangover Square and Citizen Kane. I hate the new orchestrations.

When I have more patience, I'll go back and watch the rest of it.


I couldn't get into it either and soon lost patience. This was Matthew Bourne on auto-pilot. It all seemed rather dreary and repetitive, and as you say totally lacking in any kind of magic. It was interesting to hear Herrmann's music but the orchestra sounded very screechy to my ears. Brian Easdale's ravishing ballet music was sadly missed.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 1:32 PM   
 By:   Last Child   (Member)

I remember reading about this when it premiered. Can't wait to see it. However, I can only wonder how Benny would have reacted to having his music lifted and placed in another work.

One hint might be found in the story Brian de Palma told about the time they first screened SISTERS for Herrmann. They started playing temp tracks of Herrmann's music and he blew up. Big mistake!


He was alive when Fox used his music in "Lost in Space." I could see him being outraged, or being charitable that the show needed his music.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 4:03 PM   
 By:   eriknelson   (Member)


I couldn't get into it either and soon lost patience. This was Matthew Bourne on auto-pilot. It all seemed rather dreary and repetitive, and as you say totally lacking in any kind of magic. It was interesting to hear Herrmann's music but the orchestra sounded very screechy to my ears. Brian Easdale's ravishing ballet music was sadly missed.


I agree. One musical problem is that the orchestra was small. All of us are used to hearing Herrmann's full blooded orchestrations. Audience members not as familiar with Herrmann's music probably thought everything was fine.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 4:13 PM   
 By:   haineshisway   (Member)

Have no idea what the filming was like, but it was VERY good onstage. I really enjoyed all of it.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 6:35 PM   
 By:   jskoda   (Member)

I agree. One musical problem is that the orchestra was small. All of us are used to hearing Herrmann's full blooded orchestrations. Audience members not as familiar with Herrmann's music probably thought everything was fine.

I think another problem with Herrmann is, especially early on maybe because of coming from radio, he was writing for a microphone, not a concert hall. If you had the exact original film orchestrations and played them in a concert, they wouldn't sound right. Herrmann knew how it would be recorded and balanced and anticipated that.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 18, 2021 - 10:22 PM   
 By:   haineshisway   (Member)

I agree. One musical problem is that the orchestra was small. All of us are used to hearing Herrmann's full blooded orchestrations. Audience members not as familiar with Herrmann's music probably thought everything was fine.

I think another problem with Herrmann is, especially early on maybe because of coming from radio, he was writing for a microphone, not a concert hall. If you had the exact original film orchestrations and played them in a concert, they wouldn't sound right. Herrmann knew how it would be recorded and balanced and anticipated that.


It's amazing to me to hear how "small" the orchestra is. I can't believe that people don't understand that film scores of the forties and fifties were not played by 100-piece symphony orchestras. They were played by forty-five to fifty players in most cases. The sound of the band, at least in the theater, sounded great.

 
 Posted:   Sep 19, 2021 - 2:58 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

Yes, I saw it live about two years ago. Fascinating use of Herrmann's music.

The BBC also showed a recording at Christmas last year. It may even still be on BBC iPlayer.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 19, 2021 - 9:07 AM   
 By:   eriknelson   (Member)

I agree. One musical problem is that the orchestra was small. All of us are used to hearing Herrmann's full blooded orchestrations. Audience members not as familiar with Herrmann's music probably thought everything was fine.

I think another problem with Herrmann is, especially early on maybe because of coming from radio, he was writing for a microphone, not a concert hall. If you had the exact original film orchestrations and played them in a concert, they wouldn't sound right. Herrmann knew how it would be recorded and balanced and anticipated that.


It's amazing to me to hear how "small" the orchestra is. I can't believe that people don't understand that film scores of the forties and fifties were not played by 100-piece symphony orchestras. They were played by forty-five to fifty players in most cases. The sound of the band, at least in the theater, sounded great.


Maybe it's the way the orchestra was miked. Compared to what I'm used to hearing, the theatre orchestra sounded anemic.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2021 - 8:09 AM   
 By:   John B. Archibald   (Member)

Whereas the original movie was centered around the theme of devotion to art above all else, this ballet was more self-conscious and stylized from the beginning. When the whole thing seems like a dream ballet, there’s but little room left for any contrast, let alone development. In addition, there were several sequences that seemed more like filler. The dancers were all beautifully skilled, but in the end they seemed far better than this vehicle.

Now Herrmann certainly would have been able to compose for ballet, but this whole piece seemed to have no musical cohesion. Maybe if I hadn’t recognized the source material, I’d have been able to accept it on its own terms. But I wasn’t. I enjoyed hearing the music, but my familiarity kept me from enjoying the ballet.

And, BTW, this isn’t the first time “The Red Shoes” has been staged. A musical version opened on Broadway in December of 1993 to scathing reviews, and closed after 5 performances. The producer had insisted on recreating the 1948 film, fired the earlier creative staff, and had hired film director Stanley Donen to direct. Music was by Jule Styne, composer of both “Gypsy” and “Funny Girl.”

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2021 - 8:35 AM   
 By:   haineshisway   (Member)

Whereas the original movie was centered around the theme of devotion to art above all else, this ballet was more self-conscious and stylized from the beginning. When the whole thing seems like a dream ballet, there’s but little room left for any contrast, let alone development. In addition, there were several sequences that seemed more like filler. The dancers were all beautifully skilled, but in the end they seemed far better than this vehicle.

Now Herrmann certainly would have been able to compose for ballet, but this whole piece seemed to have no musical cohesion. Maybe if I hadn’t recognized the source material, I’d have been able to accept it on its own terms. But I wasn’t. I enjoyed hearing the music, but my familiarity kept me from enjoying the ballet.

And, BTW, this isn’t the first time “The Red Shoes” has been staged. A musical version opened on Broadway in December of 1993 to scathing reviews, and closed after 5 performances. The producer had insisted on recreating the 1948 film, fired the earlier creative staff, and had hired film director Stanley Donen to direct. Music was by Jule Styne, composer of both “Gypsy” and “Funny Girl.”


I saw it in previews, just two performances before Roger Rees was fired and it was horrendous, save for the ballet itself, which was done very well with choreography by Lar Lubovitch. Rees was replaced by Steve Barton, a wonderful performer but completely wrong for that role, although they clearly have shown him Mr. Walbrook's performance. Rees was not the problem, but then again, they'd rather blame that than actually fix the show. The score, save for one Styne melody, which I recorded at the time, is a sad end to a brilliant career. The big act one closer, given to Lermantov, was a recycled melody from Styne's Look to the Lillies. A lyricist was brought in to help, credited as Paul Stryker, who was actually Styne collaborator Bob Merrill. That didn't help either. Donen had already replaced the director when I saw it, but he was not a stage director and was completely out of his element. That said, the original director he replaced, Susan Schulman, was worse, and, of course, all this work and firing happened ONLY during the fifty-one previews with all Broadway eyes watching. The book by Marsha Norman was not so hot, and half the creative team just wanted the film onstage and the other half wanted to change it up. Hence, terrible reviews and five performances.

Here's a good sampling of the show - Barton went in very late, just a few days before opening. George de la Pena as Grisha came out best in the reviews, but many of the reviewer did like Margaret Illman as Victoria Page. And she was a wonderful dancer, as you'll see, and Lubovitch's choreography was the best thing in the show.

https://youtu.be/zLjBcWXWq-E

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 21, 2021 - 11:21 AM   
 By:   John B. Archibald   (Member)

Thanks for the press reels! They lend a fair picture of what the show was like. Barton does seem to be imitating Walbrook. The songs seem more or less generic. It sounds like Styne wrote his own title ballet. I didn’t notice any music by Easdale in the short excerpt. Overall the show seems more like a ballet pastiche, with some Broadway songs for garnish.

 
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