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 Posted:   Mar 7, 2005 - 10:55 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Thanks for all the wonderful examples so far. Just to clarify: #3 is NOT supposed to be a classical Hollywood film, but probably something you would label "arthouse". It's really more than just music going against visuals. It's also music drawing attention to the fact that we're watching a film (by being non-synchrous, for example).

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 7, 2005 - 11:02 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

***Thor, before I offer some suggestions, may I just say that I am savoring the irony that it would be you asking this. wink***

Oh?

***This is a really intriguing topic, and it looks like you have a really cool basis for a lecture (Pierrot Le Fou indeed!!! big grin)... would you be interested in transcribing the discussion for us?***

Sure, I'll think about it.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 7, 2005 - 11:12 AM   
 By:   ahem   (Member)

I'm going to have a 2-hour lecture on film music at another university next week (about film music's functions), so I need to prepare myself properly with a bunch of examples. Still, I'm baffled by my own inability to come up with good ones. Here's what I need:

1. A typical example of music underscoring dialogue in a classical Hollywood film (i.e. without the music drawing too much attention to itself). I was thinking Anthony Hopkins' final speech in AMISTAD, but perhaps that is too over-blown.

2. Music underscoring a character's point-of-view in a classical Hollywood film, for example his or her extreme focus on a certain item that only the music "explains" (I was thinking LAURA, but I haven't actually seen that film).

3. Music that BREAKS with the Hollywood mode, i.e. displays discontinuity, emotional contrast, goes against character identification etc. (I already have Godard's PIERROT LE FOU on the list)

Any suggestions, good people? Be aware that - perhaps except for #3 - these should be readily available films that I can borrow from the institute's media library.


1. Anything from Breakfast at Tiffany's.

2. Well of Souls from Indiana Jones/The UN visit music from North By Northwest

3. Singin in the Rain in Clockwork Orange

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 8, 2005 - 12:12 AM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

Thor, please elaborate on what you're looking for in #3. Seems like a filmic equivalent is the ending of Monty Python & the Holy Grail or Blazing Saddles!

another form #2: Blanche's encounter with the newsboy in A Streetcar Named Desire. The music underscores what's going on in her state of mind; a mental flashback. North specialized in this sort of stuff.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 8, 2005 - 8:42 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Thor, please elaborate on what you're looking for in #3. Seems like a filmic equivalent is the ending of Monty Python & the Holy Grail or Blazing Saddles!

Yeah, that's the self-conscious parody version. In those cases, it's more of a one-time comedy effect than an overall approach. But I'm thinking more experimental and obscure stuff, preferably made without any ties to Hollywood.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 8, 2005 - 3:10 PM   
 By:   Jesse Hopkins   (Member)

So you want it to be from a movie that is not only independently made, but independantly released? Lionsgate is out of Canada. I don't really see the difference. There are plenty of independently made movies released by Hollywood.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 8, 2005 - 3:32 PM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

So you want it to be from a movie that is not only independently made, but independantly released? Lionsgate is out of Canada. I don't really see the difference. There are plenty of independently made movies released by Hollywood.

I'm thinking modernistic films by the likes of Godard, Bunuel, Fassbinder, Herzog, Tsukamoto etc. .... or Man Ray, for that matter. Even though I am aware of their work, I haven't seen enough of their movies to know if they make good examples.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 9, 2005 - 2:48 PM   
 By:   arthur grant   (Member)

1. Someone mentioned THE GHOST AND MRS. MUIR. Specifically the scene of dialouge between the mother and daughter...(Bernard Herrmann's music here is the Andante Cantabale from the album)and I cannot think of a better example of music underscoring dialouge than this.

2. The scene where Ray Milland walks down 3rd Avenue in New York looking for a pawn shop that's open to hock his typewriter (so he can buy more booze)in THE LOST WEEKEND music by Miklos Rozsa.

3. John Williams score to Robert Altman's IMAGES is totally against the grain, full of strange sounds with an oriental slant, and certainly not your typical psycho horror genre score either.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 14, 2005 - 9:26 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

I guess I owe it to you to say which examples I used.

Here's how I structured the lecture:

PART 1: Film music research - a historical context

PART 2: Classical film music functions

I based it on Claudia Gorbman's list in her "Unheard Melodies".

To illustrate "invisibility", I picked the tribal dance from KING KONG (1933)

To illustrate "inaudibility", or rather, how to score dialogue unobtrusively, I picked the scene where Jem tells Scout about the tree treasures in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD (thanks, Howard!)

To illustrate a character's point-of-view, as evident in the music, I picked Marion's escape from PSYCHO (thanks, JSDouglas!)

To illustrate continuity in montage sequences, I picked the "living the life"-montage from SCARFACE (1983)

To illustrate unity, I picked the Obi-Wan leitmotif from STAR WARS, first as the character is introduced in the desert, and then the last celebration scene, where the theme is expanded to signify the force of the good side in general.

PART 3: Breaks with the Hollywood mode

To illustrate rhythmic discontinuity, I picked the car-theft scene from PIERROT LE FOU.

To illustrate the use of silence, I picked the last park scene in BLOW UP.

PART 4: Semi-breaks in neo-classical film

To illustrate the emotional autonomy in neo-classical films, I picked the Flying scene from E.T.

To illustrate the mood-based autonomy in neo-classical film (through the merging of diegesis and non-diegesis), I picked the opening and "snake"-related scene from BLADE RUNNER

To illustrate the autonomous enjoyment of symbolism in neo-classical film, I picked the Ice Dance-scene and the Cookie factory scene from EDWARD SCISSORHANDS.

They were going to show INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE after the lecture, and I told them which things to look out for as far as the music was concerned (the opening train-scene, the grail theme, the scherzo for motorcycle and orchestra and the final tank sequence).

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 15, 2005 - 1:07 AM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

To illustrate "invisibility", I picked the tribal dance from KING KONG (1933)

Please explain what you mean by "invisibility" as the tribal dance is playing in my mind's ear. I ask because in a literal sense, I think of invisibilty more along the lines of Steiner's triplets underscoring the steps of the unseen Kong.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 15, 2005 - 10:28 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Please explain what you mean by "invisibility" as the tribal dance is playing in my mind's ear. I ask because in a literal sense, I think of invisibilty more along the lines of Steiner's triplets underscoring the steps of the unseen Kong.

I used that example because it is quite paradoxical. The source of the music should be concealed at all costs in classical Hollywood films, yet the percussionists of the tribe are accompanied by a HUGE symphony orchestra in the dance. Where are they playing? In the nearby huts? The point is that the spectator probably won't notice the presence of the orchestra, because it is integrated in the scene so well.

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 15, 2005 - 2:32 PM   
 By:   Howard L   (Member)

Ah, now I see what you mean. And it's interesting how one could correlate how in musicals a person could be playing a piano and then the soundtrack suddenly breaks out into a full orchestra. Of course, it's highly 'visible', in that aural regard. This also reminds me of how Bob Hope would lampoon music in film. One of the Road pictures in particular had him alone with a girl in a quiet romantic scene. When the introduction to the inevitable song number came around, there was Bob looking everywhere wondering where the music was coming from!

 
 
 Posted:   Mar 16, 2005 - 11:38 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Yeah, it's often subject to parody. You already mentioned another example; the sudden appearance of the orchestra in BLAZING SADDLES.

It is quite paradoxical that Hollywood wanted to conceal the source so much, yet they used an idiom (a full-blooded orchestra in a late romantic tradition) that aurally was very present and "in-your-face".

 
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