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 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 4:15 AM   
 By:   Zooba   (Member)

With the different versions of THE UNTOUCHABLES and it's music

Original TV Series Nelson Riddle

Feature Film Ennio Morricone

Newer TV Series Joel Goldsmith

What is your favorite take on the different musical approaches and your thoughts of the music in general?

For me, the Riddle Theme is a TV Classic. I loved Morricone's score and it's triumphant Main Theme and his Italian sounding Sad Theme. I also really liked Joel Goldsmith's updated version and engaging Main Theme, which to me sounds much like something his father could have wrote. A similar style like Jerry Goldsmith's TV Theme from H.E.L.P., well sort of.

Please share.


 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 5:10 AM   
 By:   Nick Haysom   (Member)

Can't disagree with your comments. I particularly like the muscularity of Joel G's theme. First I'd heard of a series called H.E.L.P. Learn something new everyday!

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 7:29 AM   
 By:   vinylscrubber   (Member)

The board's own beloved "Soundtrackman" is convinced Goldsmith Sr. actually wrote this theme for Joel. If this isn't true, it's still one of the best things Joel Goldsmith ever wrote (with the possible exception of the STARGATE ATLANTIS theme.) That base percussion line is one of the trickiest things to deconstruct in one's mind since Jerry's CAPRICORN ONE. In fact, it wasn't until I heard it in stereo on the GNP/Crescendo compilation disk that I realized it's actually TWO percussionists playing together.

The Riddlemusic has much nostalgic value for me, while Morricone's effort for the DePalma film remains the most distinguished musical backing for Elliot Ness.

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 10:23 AM   
 By:   Ford A. Thaxton   (Member)

The board's own beloved "Soundtrackman" is convinced Goldsmith Sr. actually wrote this theme for Joel. If this isn't true, it's still one of the best things Joel Goldsmith ever wrote (with the possible exception of the STARGATE ATLANTIS theme.)

What a load of CRAP!

Tell him that this theme was composed by Joel Goldsmith, the only thing Goldsmith sr. MIGHT have done is conduct the pilot score for his son, I'd have to ask Joel about that, but that my recollection.

If Jerry had written it, HE WOULD HAVE HAD HIS NAME ON IT, trust me, that man wasn't about to give away a MAIN TITLE THEME to ANYONE, PERIOD!

And Joel would not take credit for a main title theme written by his father, it's just not in his nature.

THe scoring of this program was nothing short of outstanding and this comment is so disrepectful towards Joel and both of you owe him a PUBLIC APOLOGY for making it in the first place.

This sort of nonsense just pisses me off.

Ford A. Thaxton

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 10:32 AM   
 By:   LeHah   (Member)

I like the intro by Joel. It sounds a lot like the title theme he wrote for Call Of Duty 3.

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 10:49 AM   
 By:   SchiffyM   (Member)

This sort of nonsense just pisses me off.

Totally agree with you, Ford. What a ridiculous, arbitrary accusation: "I like this theme so much, his father must have written it!"

Years ago, I had a friend who was a Goldsmith fanatic (at the time, the only other soundtrack fan I knew!) who had the inverse theory. He was so disappointed in some recent Jerry Goldsmith score at the time (can't remember which one it was anymore) that he chose to believe that Joel had ghost-written it for his father!

These are the downsides of having a famous (in our circles) father, I suppose.

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 11:52 AM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

Well anyway, I love Joel's theme.

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 4:39 PM   
 By:   vinylscrubber   (Member)

Sorry to drag "Soundtrackman" into this rant by Mr. T. This remains speculation only and I probably should have kept it between Mark and myself. (Heaven forfend we should upset the Mighty Pvog!)

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 4:42 PM   
 By:   'Lenny Bruce' Marshall   (Member)

oh boy Vinylscrubber , youreally stepped in it this time.
Insulting me is one thing, but getting FAT mad at you.....
I shudder at the consequences!

 Posted:   Feb 3, 2010 - 5:45 PM   
 By:   Spymaster   (Member)

Joel Goldsmith's music was the best thing about that series, and it wasn't a bad series!

It's also the ONE thing that's motivating me to watch Stargate: Universe right now!

When the *** *** *** are we gonna get more of Joel's music on disc???

 Posted:   Feb 4, 2010 - 5:43 AM   
 By:   vinylscrubber   (Member)

I wish more people were hiring Joel Goldsmith as he seems to have evolved into a very capable composer in his own right.

(Voice, I didn't step in anything--a large piece of offal lept up from the ground and affixed itself to my shoe.)

 Posted:   Feb 4, 2010 - 7:17 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

Interesting. I had no idea about the TV series. I thought this was a one-of-a-kind, original feature film.

 Posted:   Aug 22, 2016 - 8:30 PM   
 By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

Out of lack of things interesting enough to keep my preoccupied while exercising my brains out, I stumbled upon this.

Now, it's nothing I hadn't known about before and I knew Joel had scored the whole run, but I never had a reason to check it out until now. Like in previous thread where I did mini reviews of episode scores, I am now doing the same for this series.

Highlights include:
  • The opening warehouse bust with the repeating plucked strings and the descending lower octave piano notes, with beefy snare and timpani.
  • The first montage cue of the long pilot where Capone is courting his future wife, with staccato woodwind, light wooden blocks, according, triangle, tamborine, creating a light tone until it switches to a darker tone with a fluttering flute and lower brass and lower octave woodwind use.
  • The woodwinds and strings piece as Ness has a chance encounter with the woman plotting to become his wife, which sounds a surprising bit like the warm strings and woodwinds cue from "Star Trek: Insurrection" tiitled "New Sight". There's another cue like this ater on in the episode.
  • The second montage of the episode, with an underlining chugging double bass marcato-played string with thoe same odd drums Joel would use here and there in his scores, including the "Flight of the Pheonix" cue from "Star Trek: First Contact" (I'm not sure what kind of drums these are; almost tempted to say I'm confusing them for tom toms), smacking over it with occassional lower octave piano notes, with what sounds like strings, a woodwind and an accordian all playing a theme in unison, taking on a slower jazzier pace with a solo clarinet and some fingered double bass, closing out the montage.
  • The third montage cue of the pilot, opening fast trembling violins and a trombone, quickly going to aggressive snare drums and angry brass with slight growls with timapni underneath as gang violence breaks out across the city. It gets a little more aggressive and the ideas from the first cue I mentioned, are used. There are some softer violins used for lighter passages.
  • The fourth monage cue of the pilot, with some sparce trinagle and cymbal taps, low-ish brass playign a repeating figure, timpani, a wooden block, some occassional decending woodwind notes and a free-style woodwind (maybe a clarinet) playing one of the themes from the score, while we see how Capone and Ness' lives diverge.

  • Really -- there isn't a single unworthy-of-mention cue in the while pilot score, I just pointed out the best of the best 'cause writing up a summary of each and every cue is tiring and nobody wants to read that unless it's a liner notes piece in a release.

    This is really top-notch modern scoring. Sadly there has only been a promo with a little over thirty-nine minutes of unidentified score. The pilto score alone deserves a release.

    The guy who plays Ness doesnt' do that great a job and some of his acting was just bad. However, Capone is done quite well and the pilot really develops the character and shows how he got to where he became the man history knows him as.

    And now, for no reason whatsoever, a bad alcohol joke:
    She was just a whisky maker, but he loved her still.

     Posted:   Aug 23, 2016 - 4:51 AM   
     By:   brofax   (Member)

    Well, I wasn't aware that there had been a new TV series and that is the first time I've heard the Joel Goldsmith and I think it is an absolutely brilliant piece of work. It's gone straight onto my current playlist.

    Morricone's theme is, of course, as legendary as the man himself but, whilst the original TV series was excellent, I'm afraid the Nelson Riddle theme never did anything for me and doesn't now either.

     Posted:   Aug 23, 2016 - 9:00 PM   
     By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

    "First Blood"

    Turns out this isn't the only thing by that title a Goldsmith scored.

  • A short cue with jazzy double bass and an instrument I couldn't readily identify, as Capone shows up to a church.
  • A cue that opens up with an ascending french horn over snare drum as Ness gets him men readied up for a surprise take down. As the cue progresses, we find returning ideas from the pilot score as well as some percussion.
  • The restrained cue with light timpani hits and a solo trombone over it as one as Ness men shows him something he picked up to help them.
  • Another restrained cue with a small violins section and a solo trumpet playing over it as one of Ness' new men wants to see him
  • And and aytipical cue with slow rising brass (with one growling underneath) climaxing some kind of percussion cluster, like it's sticks and brass beings lapped or what not (heard in his "Stargate: SG1" and "Moon 44" scores), interspaced with a solo timapani lightly hitting out a pattern (not unlike what Jerry used to do), as Ness and Malone work on a suspect.

    There's some fine writing on display here and the characterization and performance of Capone is really good. Surprisingly, have just looked into it, the [compelte] series was only issued on DVD sometime in the last couple of years.

     Posted:   Aug 24, 2016 - 12:49 AM   
     By:   Zooba   (Member)

    Here's Jerry Goldsmith's H.E.L.P. Theme. Almost sounds like Joel could have composed IT.

    The two Maestro's were Awesome and are truly sorely missed! Jerry and Joel Goldsmith's music will live forever! God Bless!

    Goldsmith's H.E.L.P. Theme plays after James Horner's Universal Logo Theme:

     Posted:   Aug 24, 2016 - 4:23 PM   
     By:   filmusicnow   (Member)

    Riddle's best television theme, in my opinion. Country to popular belief, the music that was rerecorded for the album that featured Robert Stack on the cover with a machine gun WAS heard on the series, and it's certainly Riddle's best work for the medium (along with his work for "Batman").

     Posted:   Sep 6, 2016 - 4:05 AM   
     By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

    "Murder Inc: Part 1"

  • A piece that opens with a solo trombone and into a solo piano as Ness is undressing at home while talking to his wife. Woodwinds and a harp join the piano to form a new version of the love theme I first described in the pilot score. Strings and delicate piano playing close the peice out. There's mroe after a short scene inbetween.
  • The cue as Ness drives the reporter up the wrong warehouse. It opens with what I can best describe as, for a lack of a better description because I'm not entirely sure what I'm hearing, snare sticks clanking and brass instruments being tapped (I guess)
    and a bass flute
    melodically playing up and down the scales, that then goes into a jazzy piece with fingered double bass and quickly into what soudns liek a bass cello and bass bassoon playing in unison two notes with some strings i nthe back and light snare drum taps then a quick action piece with more clanking before kind of fizzling out because of a commercial break.
  • A cue that opens with some kind of wind instrument (maybe an alto sax) then goes into some uneasy music with low brass and bass bassoon in unison as various instruments take a go at what I'm guessing was some adlibing from sessions players, from a jazzy solo trumpet to xzylophone as a crooked newspaper reporter named Lingle starts to become paranoid and fearful of his life while walking around the city.
    Capone: "Al Capone believes in self preservation. Maybe you should, too, Jake..."

    "Murder Inc: Part 2"

  • The first montage cue since the pilot, that opens with percussive drumming, brass stabs, maybe drum sticks clicking (or the hard edge of drums being hit) and a solo tuba playing over it.
  • There's some more of the soft music described in Part I, with Ness and his wife. This one closes with a wonderful soft touch with woodwinds.
  • And a jazzy cue with fingered double bass, a steady paced cymbol tap, xylophone (wooden perhaps), and that unidentified woodwind playing over it. It's not really scene specific, it kind of transitions from two different scenes.

     Posted:   Sep 11, 2016 - 5:04 AM   
     By:   Justin Boggan   (Member)

    "Deal with the Devil"

  • The quick staccato brass ostinato piece with a solo screaching trumpet (I guess tha'ts what it is) playing over it as Ness' men trail a suspecious delivery at night.
  • The moody little peice with brass and woodwinds and a slow soft timpani beat as Capone sets up a lunch guest. A deep cello base lingers underneath it.
  • The short cue that opens with violins and a clarinet (and I think a flute doubling it), then immediately goes into into chugging cellos with perccusion hits and hard hitting solo piano playing in the upper octaves as a guest star walks to a building. Nothing like some dramatic walking music to make something more dramatic then it actually is.

    "A Tale of Two Fathers: Part I"

  • Another take on the love theme for Ness and his wife, as he wakes up and goes outside to get the paper, with legato violin playing and a clarinet playing the theme over it, which takes a dark turn as he sees a news paper headline. The scene then changes to a montage and the cue shifts to another one of Joel's' cool montage pieces, with marcato cell bass keepign a beat and staccato woodwinds and some snare drum. Unlike previous montage cues, this one has too much SFX over it to enjoy it apart from the episode.
  • And uneasy woodwind piece with aharp playing underneath as the female reporter follows a suspcious-looking man.
  • The sorroful woodwinds and cello bass with occassional soft timpani thuds as Capone visits a funeral.
  • Another montage cue with woodwinds playing in unison staccato with a soft timpani as what I think is a solo tuba playing in it's upper register, plays the main theme of the series. It transitions into something similar to the music to the female reporter chasing that man in a cue mentioned earlier, once the montage ends.
  • A playful slow piece with staccato woodwinds as a Catholic school nun reprimands Capone and then guilts him into donating money after he bribes initially with some. It changes directio nwith a solo cello bass line and a piano playing, adding a clarinet playing somberly as Capone talks to his son as he is driven home.
  • A tense lightly building piece with staccato woodwinds and violins playing underneath and Ness and his wife look for their daughter in the house.
  • The uneasy harp piece with a solo clarinet as a street bum tries to trade with a kid.
  • Another montage cue withthe stick clusters, interspaced with a four-note theme with a timpani hit each time and a french horn playinnf the theme, with some rumbling cello bass playing playing breif lines. Some strings and a solo trumpet also make appearances. For the montage scene of Capone's men gathering up hobos and bums off the streets.
  • A slow timpani beat with cello bass underneath and a clarinet playing a theme over as Ness and Capone worry about a child killer striking again. A solo trombone also switches out for the clarinet. It picks up the pace with a faster timpani beat with brass and low woodwinds repeating a pattern as a I guess a clarinet plays over it in a jazzy way.
  • And the closing cue as Ness meets Capone in a church. It changes a few different ways and I just don't have the patience to describe it.

    Remember when I said the actor playing Ness can barely act? It's even more painfully obvious in this episode.

    "A Tale of Two Fathers: Part 2"

  • The short cue that opens with timpani hits and brass, that morphs into a harp with a flute playing over it as Capone reads in his study.
  • The wistful cue as Ness remembers a childhood friend, with a harp piano and trading off of various woodwinds.
  • The repeating piano figure as a killer drives up at night, which turns into whimsical piece with woodwinds and piano for a family in their home at night with kids playing with marbles, which takes on an off-kilter sound as the killer nears. Not unlike something I'd expect to have heard from Jerry.
  • The short dramatic cue with staccato woodwind and snare drum, which goes into an uneasy piece with a cello bass underneath and brass(?) instrunment playing theme of the episode in a more uneasy way, with a steady timpani beat as Ness and Malone find the killer.
  • The short chase piece as Ness goes after the killer. It's a little all over and too much to describe.
  • And finally the episode closes with another variation on the Ness family love theme, with a repeating harp pattern, violins, and a flute playing the theme. There's some nice and subtle play between the flute and clarinet in this piece.

    This episode score features very light use of a whaterphone, hinting at the delusional state of the killer.

    There's no a bad cue in the two-parter, it's a strong score.

    Sadly, at the moment, these are all the episodes I can do.

     Posted:   Sep 11, 2016 - 8:08 AM   
     By:   OnyaBirri   (Member)

    The Morricone and Goldsmith don't do anything for me.

    I love Riddle's main theme, in particular the longer version he recorded for the album. The arrangement is similar but expanded.

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