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Posted: |
Jun 17, 2004 - 12:39 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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I hijacked the "Tarantino...Quentin Tarantino" thread to talk about my continued exposure to the Bond films beyond the Brosnan ones. I feel kinda sorry for that, so I've pasted in all of the pertinent discussion into this separate thread, which I will continue as Norwegian TV is showing more and more Bond films every sunday.
Here's the discussion from that earlier thread so far:
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Thor:
Unlike most people here, I'm not really very passionate about James Bond movies (in fact, I only saw DR. NO for the first time a week ago), so I'm not really anal about what directors are suitable for the franchise or not. QT is an excellent director, and I'm sure he would make a hell of a movie.
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Timmer:
Is Dr.No the ONLY Bond film you've seen Thor?
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Thor:
**Is Dr.No the ONLY Bond film you've seen Thor?**
No, I've seen all the Brosnan ones, and way back in my memory, I know I've seen OHMSS and at least ONE Roger Moore vehicle. Maybe I've even seen more, but have forgotten about them. What's the name of the film where Bond is thrown into a shark pool? They're such an integral part of popular culture, you know, so it's impossible not to have at least SOME exposure to them.
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Ahem:
out of respect to Ahem,
...Who DIED earlier today
LOL
Holy Moly, Thor! No Wonder you feel you can relate to Arnold's music over Barry's- have you seen the Dalton flicks or heard their scores?? Best you sit down with some Barry scored classics (From Russia with Love, OHMSS, Living Daylights) and crap-middling Bond films with GREAT scores (Diamonds are Forever, Goldfinger, Moonraker, A View to A Kill, Octopussy) as well as the non Barry scored classics (Live and Let Die, Spy Who loved me and Licence to Kill) to see how EVERYBODY does it better... than Arnold, Conti, Legrand and Serra
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Thor:
***Holy Moly, Thor! No Wonder you feel you can relate to Arnold's music over Barry's- have you seen the Dalton flicks??***
No, not that I can recall.
***Best you sit down with some Barry scored classics (From Russia with Love, OHMSS, Living Daylights) and crap-middling Bond films with GREAT scores (Diamonds are Forever, Goldfinger, Moonraker, A View to A Kill, Octopussy) as well as the non Barry scored classics (Live and Let Die, Spy Who loved me and Licence to Kill)***
You know, I actually have a James Bond sampler that Timmer made me, which includes excerpts of some, if not all of the above. It currently is the ONLY John Barry in my collection, except for the odd theme here and there. I was never a big Barry fan, although my door is open.
As I said in the TWINE thread, I don't listen to Bond music because it's Bond music. To me, it's just music. So I don't like to compare Barry's material to Arnold's when I'm talking soundtrack albums.
When that is said, I cannot hide the fact that I prefer the Arnold material over the Barry excerpts on Timmer's sampler (*the audience gasps!*), although those excerpts are indeed quite nice and made me appreciate Barry a lot more. But his knack for slowing things down immensely, and relying on melodies that do not really captivate me - for some reason or other - is just something that keeps him off my shelves. At least for now, untill finances allow further exploration.
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Thor:
Saw FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE last night. At times a bit boring, but at least I'm getting there in terms of familiarity.
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Herrmannrules:
***Saw FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE last night. At times a bit boring, but at least I'm getting there in terms of familiarity.***
I think that "From Russia, with Love" is one of the best of the Bond screenplays. The emphasis is more on intrigue. And that fight on the train is terrific! And how cool is Connery. Just out of curiouisity, what parts are boring to you?
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Timmer:
***Saw FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE last night. At times a bit boring, but at least I'm getting there in terms of familiarity.***
GOLDFINGER is THE Bond film Thor. Barry's brassiest score, best theme song, great villains, particularly Harald Sakata's mute and menacing Oddjob ( Q:what do you call a man who can crush a golf ball with one hand? A:Sir! ) and a superbly ludicrous plot to nuke Fort Knox!
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Thor:
***I think that "From Russia, with Love" is one of the best of the Bond screenplays. The emphasis is more on intrigue. And that fight on the train is terrific! And how cool is Connery. Just out of curiouisity, what parts are boring to you? ***
Well, mainly the overall slow pace. It lacked the exotic element of DR. NO, and worked almost like a crime drama (I've never really been a fan of those) with the occasional action set-piece. I will agree that the train fight was particularly exciting, though. No music, as I can recall, and the tenacity to have them fight for several minutes - mano to mano.
Norwegian TV is showing three Bond films in a row, and next Sunday, the last film will be just GOLDFINGER. Let's see how it holds up.
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Timmer:
Yeah Thor, that fight between Bond and Grant is good, Last time I watched it I was surprised at how vicious this fight was...very gritty!
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Herrmannrules:
***Well, mainly the overall slow pace. It lacked the exotic element of DR. NO, and worked almost like a crime drama (I've never really been a fan of those) with the occasional action set-piece. I will agree that the train fight was particularly exciting, though. No music, as I can recall, and the tenacity to have them fight for several minutes - mano to mano.
Norwegian TV is showing three Bond films in a row, and next Sunday, the last film will be just GOLDFINGER. Let's see how it holds up.***
Interesting. I love FROM RUSSIA, WITH LOVE because of carefully plotted set up. The villians are true classics. I don't find the pace slow. It really is a thinking man's action picture. But I can understand where your coming from. If all you've seen are the recent Bond's, then yeah, this might be a shock to the system!
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Thor:
Just to follow up on my continued exposure to the Bond world...I watched GOLDFINGER for the first time last sunday.
I must confess to you, Timmer, that I wasn't as impressed by this film as you obviously are. Sure, it was entertaining enough on a certain level, but there were many odd and unclear aspects to the narrative.
For example, the protagonist-antagonist relationship between Bond and Goldfinger is not communicated very clearly. Does Goldfinger really recognize him when they're playing golf?
Also, Goldfinger lets Bond live because he is of "greater use alive". Why? What is it in the last part of the film that makes him so valuable alive? After all, he IS going to be killed with the nuclear bomb.
The escape from the prison is pretty silly and quite unbelieveable. Why would the guard enter the room in the first place just because Bond is having fun with him through the window?
Another silly thing (bordering on camp) is Oddjob's hat. What's up with that "killer frisbee" thing? Made me laugh.
Also, the F/X were quite mediocre, even for 1964.
Barry's music, as usual, was more jarring to me than pleasing. It lacked TEMPO, vivacity and thematic diversity. It wasn't bad music (and even had some highlights), but I just don't "agree" with that kind of scoring for this type of film.
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Herrmannrules:
***Just to follow up on my continued exposure to the Bond world...I watched GOLDFINGER for the first time last sunday.
I must confess to you, Timmer, that I wasn't as impressed by this film as you obviously are. Sure, it was entertaining enough on a certain level, but there were many odd and unclear aspects to the narrative.
For example, the protagonist-antagonist relationship between Bond and Goldfinger is not communicated very clearly. Does Goldfinger really recognize him when they're playing golf?***
YES.
***Also, Goldfinger lets Bond live because he is of "greater use alive". Why? What is it in the last part of the film that makes him so valuable alive? After all, he IS going to be killed with the nuclear bomb.***
Because Goldfinger knows that he's being watched by Felix Leiter and the CIA. They know he has Bond. He dosen't want to indanger "Operation Grand Slam". After the "operation" is over, he could care less about the CIA and has no more use for Bond.
***The escape from the prison is pretty silly and quite unbelieveable. Why would the guard enter the room in the first place just because Bond is having fun with him through the window?***
I GUESS YOUR NOT CHARMED BY CONNERY. IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE REALISTIC. IT'S MEANT TO BE A "FUN" ESCAPE.
***Another silly thing (bordering on camp) is Oddjob's hat. What's up with that "killer frisbee" thing? Made me laugh.***
IT IS CAMP!
***Also, the F/X were quite mediocre, even for 1964.***
I THINK THE F/X IS FINE FOR 1964
***Barry's music, as usual, was more annoying to me than pleasing. It lacked TEMPO, vivacity and thematic diversity. It wasn't bad music (and even had some highlights), but I just don't "agree" with that kind of scoring for this type of film.***
SHAME ON YOU! I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU AT ALL. LACKS TEMPO & THEMATIC DIVERSITY?! YOU DIDN'T LISEN VERY CLOSE, DID YOU? THE SCORE HAS ABSOLUTE TEMPO AND DOES HAVE THEMATIC DIVERSITY. I THINK YOUR WAY OFF BASE HERE.
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CAT:
***Barry's music, as usual, was more jarring to me than pleasing. It lacked TEMPO, vivacity and thematic diversity. It wasn't bad music (and even had some highlights), but I just don't "agree" with that kind of scoring for this type of film.***
OMIGOD, Thor, I just ran across this and for the first time, I am totally blown away by your comments! I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE! I love the Bond flicks, and think Barry's scores are perfect for them...Goldfinger being one of my favorites! Along with my Rozsa and Herrmann scores, Barry's Bonds are my most treasured CD's. How I yearn for Barry to score a new Bond in the future!
I have to add here that I appreciate the fact that you're actually taking the time to watch the Bond films and listen to the scores in order to form your own opinions...even if we don't agree. That IS the beauty of this place...that we can agree to disagree, as long as we can keep it civil.
(You, #&@)%*#($*)@%$!!!!)
CAT
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John H Ross:
***Barry's music, as usual, was more jarring to me than pleasing. It lacked TEMPO, vivacity and thematic diversity. It wasn't bad music (and even had some highlights), but I just don't "agree" with that kind of scoring for this type of film.***
Thor, I despair!
And with reference to the original topic, I think Quentin Tarantino would be an AWFUL choice for a Bond film.
John
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Posted: |
Jun 17, 2004 - 12:47 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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OK, and here the soapbox contiunes:
I saw THUNDERBALL for the first time this weekend. Again, I found it moderately entertaining, but not enough to "convert" me.
The constant back projection and action speed-up dates the film considerably. It was more engaging to witness the real-time train fight in FROM RUSSIA than this silly/camp Benny Hill act.
Except for the physical speed-up, the pace was overall slow. A bit too slow, and wasn't made any better by Barry's slow-downed music in the first part of the underwater battle (it improves somewhat towards the end).
The ending (Bond and the girl is "hooked" by a passing airplane) is about the silliest I've ever seen. But maybe it's supposed to be that way.
I was delighted to see the shark pool scene again. This is a moment I remember from my early childhood, but it wasn't anything like I remembered it to be. I always thought we saw the events from an underwater window.
Some crucial information is presented too quickly and casually. For example, the only explanation we get that the bombs don't go off earlier or when the ship crashes, is that one of Largo's men have thrown the detonators over board. It's just a brief comment that is easy to miss, and just seems a bit cheap.
Hmmm....what else? Barry's music is based on a certain kind of minimalism that I often find grating. It was very evident in this film: Screaming, long brass clusters that is repeated over and over, often on a slow string pulse. I don't know...I still don't get it, but maybe it will grow on me.
UP ON NORWEGIAN TV THIS SUNDAY: YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE!
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I was delighted to see the shark pool scene again. This is a moment I remember from my early childhood, but it wasn't anything like I remembered it to be. I always thought we saw the events from an underwater window.
You're probably thinking of the 1977 Roger Moore film The Spy Who Loved Me, which had a scene where the villain's secretary is dropped into a shark pool, and we view her demise via a television screen.
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Posted: |
Jun 17, 2004 - 7:02 PM
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By: |
zippy
(Member)
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Oh, a happy day, this is!
But, geeze, what a life his kid's will have?
Dad is a little critical. No, he gives me a web site and seven threads to study every night.
Sorry, Dad, but I'me staying over at Michael's place in Neverland Ranch.
Thor, just kidding. I hope you find the Bond films and scores to give you some form of pleasure that you have not found since you lost your passege into the adult world.
Let us all know when you have a Martini, shaken, not stirred.
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Posted: |
Jun 19, 2004 - 2:05 AM
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By: |
TomD
(Member)
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I think Thor's comments about the real Bond films are perceptive. Those of us who grew up
with these movies are very forgiving of their faults.
The sped up action and rear projections do look pretty crummy these days. Thunderball borders on ponderous. After From Russia With Love, the movies were overloaded with crowd-pleasing elements: girls, guns, gadgets, and more girls.
I think that From Russia with Love is the best balanced of the lot. Doc No is hindered by its lack of a budget, but its lean, mean, amoral Bond is still an amazing character. He thwarted Dr. No, but barely made it past the censors. Goldfinger is way over the top, but the most fun.
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Posted: |
Jun 19, 2004 - 5:35 AM
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By: |
Spymaster
(Member)
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You know what I think is missing most from the recent Bond films - apart from Barry that is? Foreign baddies with strange accents!
Look at the older films - From Russia With Love, Goldfinger, Thunderball, The Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker, Octopussy, Never Say Never Again, The Living Daylights... hell even the likes of Live And Let Die, A View To A Kill and Licence To Kill (being that the US is still considered "foreign" to Bond).
Foreign baddies added an element of international importance to the proceedings. Bond was fighting crime on a global level. This was big. The implications of losing were huge.
Now look at the Brosnan films - Sean Bean, Jonathan Pryce, Robert Carlyle and Toby Stevens are all British! How very close and cosy. Where's the threat there? Okay, so Pryce was trying to set up a global war for his own evil ends (a la YOLT and TSWLM - yawn!) but it still felt a bit too "own back yard". Only Sophie Marceau in TWINE was there to add that sense of the "larger picture".
Bond villains need to be foreign and they need to be genuinely insane. And, needless to say, they need to be accompanied by John Barry!
John
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Looking at the times the films were made in/for, all Bonds are good (almost all...).
Maybe I'm becoming more and more of a Nostalgia-Freak - but I like the older ones better (the Connery and Moore ones)...
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Posted: |
Jun 19, 2004 - 11:37 PM
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By: |
Ghost Of HR
(Member)
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I think Thor's comments about the real Bond films are perceptive. Those of us who grew up
with these movies are very forgiving of their faults.
The sped up action and rear projections do look pretty crummy these days. Thunderball borders on ponderous. After From Russia With Love, the movies were overloaded with crowd-pleasing elements: girls, guns, gadgets, and more girls.
I think that From Russia with Love is the best balanced of the lot. Doc No is hindered by its lack of a budget, but its lean, mean, amoral Bond is still an amazing character. He thwarted Dr. No, but barely made it past the censors. Goldfinger is way over the top, but the most fun.
Well...How about that Glacier wave Bond rides in "Die Another Day"? Does that look good to you? At least Peter Hunt new how to pace a film. He was a master editor and the unsung hero of the early Bond pictures. And don't forget his direction on "On Her Majesty's Secret Service". For me, it's a toss up between "From Russia, with Love" & OHMSS as my favorite Bond film. But the secert genius of the best Bond films (DR. NO-OHMSS) is Peter Hunt!
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Posted: |
Jun 20, 2004 - 1:23 AM
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By: |
Ghost Of HR
(Member)
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Thunderball still sucked though. Especially as far as pacing went.
Go watch a Michael Bay film then.
Look, I know "Thunderball" is flawed. But damn the film still has charm. It does have some great lines, (A thing the new Bonds try so hard at and fail.) a great opening sequence, A great Barry score, Claudine Auger, Luciana Paluzzi, Martine Beswick...but most important of all, it's got Connery! I mean come on! Overall, this is a GREAT film, flaws and all.
P.S.-Is the "Lord of the Rings Trilogy" fast paced?
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Posted: |
Jun 20, 2004 - 1:32 AM
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By: |
ahem
(Member)
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I thought LOTR, save the first one sucked. The second one I walked out of midway, it was so dull, not just pace, but the fact the characters were flat and nobody seemed to care about the story but the audience.
As for your Bay comment: I'd rather see OHMSS, FRWL, Dr. No or even YOLT. Thunderball's script was awful, and if anyone could have saved it, it would have been Hunt and Young.
Incidentally- DON'T get me started on Christian Wagner, the Bruckheimer moron who edits some of Bays films and had a huge part in making Bond an unrecognsiable, anonymous U.S. , um, Bruckheimer-fest on DAD.
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) The film is a little too long & some things are just plain clumsy. I think this has a lot to due with the rushed post production to meet opening day. But boy I think there is a lot to like here. For starters, TB contains my personal favorite pre-credit sequence. It's everything some of the later pre-credit Bonds lack. It's clever, has a cool twist and Connery in full Bond charm mode.
