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 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 9:36 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

I always thought the main title theme was a tad on the lame side - not space adventure but more Peyton Place soap - but the openning fanfare and the "Space the final frontier" to "where no man has gone before" bit was sublime and genius - and I think Rodenberry's mix of the TOS opening with Goldsmith's TMP theme for TNG was perfect.

I think Rosenman's arrangement in Star Trek IV (the one in the film, not the unused opening title), Courage's Captain's Logs in TMP, and the library music from Season 1 show that it was actually a pretty terrific tune. People get hung up on the style of the main titles. Which is different from anything else in sci-fi. Certainly Trek.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 11:14 AM   
 By:   Graham S. Watt   (Member)

I've just finished the final disc! It seems that George Duning's "And the Children Shall Lead" is the least discussed of his five contributions, but it's very fine music indeed. It maybe lacks the aching otherworldly romance, or the blazingly skewered power of the other scores, but it's pretty good in its own right. I love those little plucked string fugues, for example, that he does throughout. And that "white noise" effect for the whammies is quite startling. I'm sure this will grow on me.

The re-recordings and alternates near the end of the disc are fascinating of course, especially for the completist. I'll have to work on spotting all the differences from the originals, but that might be a good project for 2013.

Now I'm going to go back and listen to it all again! THANKS AND CONGRATS TO ALL WHO MADE THIS DREAM COME TRUE (and to my darling wife, who bought it for me)!

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 12:15 PM   
 By:   Verity   (Member)

I have had a "3rd Season Duning" epiphany thanks to this set. I used to regard "And the Children Shall Lead" as just wallpaper, but listening to it now, clean on this set, it sounds more and more textured with each listen. My favorite cues are the creepy children controlling the bridge (Kids in Control) and the big finale with the Gorgon being vanquished (Gorgon Summoned/Gorgon Zapped). I won't lie that my tepid view of the episode itself probably has tainted my appreciation for the music, but now this score is rapidly moving up my favorites list.

We're a month and a half out on this set, and I'm still listening nonstop. This set just keeps on giving and giving. smile


I've just finished the final disc! It seems that George Duning's "And the Children Shall Lead" is the least discussed of his five contributions, but it's very fine music indeed. It maybe lacks the aching otherworldly romance, or the blazingly skewered power of the other scores, but it's pretty good in its own right. I love those little plucked string fugues, for example, that he does throughout. And that "white noise" effect for the whammies is quite startling. I'm sure this will grow on me.

The re-recordings and alternates near the end of the disc are fascinating of course, especially for the completist. I'll have to work on spotting all the differences from the originals, but that might be a good project for 2013.

Now I'm going to go back and listen to it all again! THANKS AND CONGRATS TO ALL WHO MADE THIS DREAM COME TRUE (and to my darling wife, who bought it for me)!

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 1:16 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)

Two think set ST apart from other science fiction movies and TV shows in my 10 yr old mind: The ship and the Theme.

The Enterprise looks like no other ship before or since. It's so ungainly, really, with all the bits and pieces that should not come together like they do. It's a ship built of ideas, not mere engineering.

The Main Theme also sounds like no other main theme. It's not a march or something that grandly heralds our heroes journeys. It's more easy going, practically lounge music. Cocky, even, considering how NOT GRAND it is. But, again, like nothing else before or since. (It's very swinging 60s is what it is, but it doesn't date itself that way either)
I like the cello and soprano version the most, the electric violin doesn't quite fill the melodic middle for me.

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 3:14 PM   
 By:   Sigerson Holmes   (Member)

The Courage main title theme has never suggested anything to me other than pulse-pounding exotic adventure, and as heard in the opening and closing of the show, it certainly rises to an almost feverishly exciting conclusion, so I do find the minor backlash here a tad baffling. I love it, and not just for nostalgic reasons.

Has it just become fashionable to poo-poo any beguine on general principle?

"Oh, I'll listen with an open mind and with genuine interest to any of the rest of this five-decade-old mono TV underscoring, but the main title theme?! THAT'S where I draw the line!"


I was aware of Courage's remarks on his attempt to evoke nautical adventure and "south seas" exoticism in the tune, and of the influence of "Beyond the Blue Horizon" on the arrangement, but Jeff wrote something interesting on Page 3 of the Season One booklet that I don't remember reading elsewhere:

"I based the [Star Trek theme] on an old Hebridean tune from the outer islands of Scotland," Courage recalled in a 1998 interview.

Anyone know what tune he might have in mind? Do any old Hebrideans from Scotland post here?

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 5:21 PM   
 By:   Scott M (Oldsmith)   (Member)

I called the great Alexander Courage's theme "bloody awful" because I want it to sound more like JUDD FOR THE DEFENSE.

You want it to sound like the most repetitive TV theme in Courage's career? All that theme contains are an intro and an exit surrounding trumpets "speaking" the name of the series eleven times in a row. Just sing "Judd for the Defense" with the music...



Seriously, it must have taken him all of 5 minutes to write.

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 8:59 PM   
 By:   Sigerson Holmes   (Member)

Whoever came up with the title "Judd for the Defense" deserves half of the royalties for that tune.

The tambourines sure give it a Goldsmith western feel.

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 9:33 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

Judd for the Defense is stupendous.

 
 Posted:   Jan 27, 2013 - 10:24 PM   
 By:   Sigerson Holmes   (Member)

Jeff, do you know any old Hebridean tunes?

 
 Posted:   Jan 28, 2013 - 7:17 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

"Oh, I'll listen with an open mind and with genuine interest to any of the rest of this five-decade-old mono TV underscoring, but the main title theme?! THAT'S where I draw the line!"

That definitely made me laugh.

I have had a "3rd Season Duning" epiphany thanks to this set. I used to regard "And the Children Shall Lead" as just wallpaper, but listening to it now, clean on this set, it sounds more and more textured with each listen.

I'm amused that Spock's Brain is considered such a masterpiece in spite of the episode, but ATCSL is ignored. (Makes you wonder what would have happened if Alternative Factor had gotten an original score.) Personally I like it better than most other Dunning. It seems to downplay (for me) the kind of Dunning sound that wears me out in a hurry. The Empath is the opposite.

I can't put my finger on it but there is something about the third season style that just makes my ears itch.

 
 Posted:   Jan 28, 2013 - 7:31 AM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

I think the reputation of And the Children Shall Lead is affected by Duning's interpolation of "Ring Around the Rosie" (kind of like Goldsmith's decision to use "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" in his IQ score)--it never fails to make me wince, but I agree the other aspects of the score are strong.

And Courage never expounded on the "Hebridean tune" idea when I talked to him...

 
 Posted:   Jan 28, 2013 - 11:25 AM   
 By:   nicholasm79   (Member)

Jeff, do you have any insight as to why music in an original score gets replaced? For example, in Catspaw, the cues Castle and Second Castle were tracked over with Bones, the Zombie from later in the score.

I more or less assumed it was a mutual decision during the editing/dubbing process. And if so, who would have the ultimate say? The line producer?

 
 Posted:   Jan 28, 2013 - 12:59 PM   
 By:   Jeff Bond   (Member)

Yes, probably Bob Justman and the music editors would hash it out. I don't think I've seen or generated any interview material where people had specific memories about cues not being used, except for Fred Steiner's unused City on the Edge of Forever music, where he says Bob Justman did not want him to preview the use of "Goodnight, Sweetheart" in his music. For the most part though, I would think the composers would be out of the loop by the time those decisions were made. On Catspaw my guess is that Fried's medieval music didn't sustain the scary mood they were looking for, so they tracked some of the later music in. Fried seemed to have the most unused music (which is a boon for someone like me because it means I got treated to 10 minutes or so of Gerald Fried Star Trek music I never heard before)--and Fried always said he went out of his way to treat things very specifically, so when his music went into an area the producers didn't like it probably jumped out a little more. Other examples are the dropped flybys from "Catspaw" and "Paradise Syndrome," which are striking in and of themselves, but ranged outside the approach established in prior scores.
One thing that struck me is the fact that very little was dropped from "Conscience of the King," but Justman never returned to Mullendore after that (it sounds like Roddenberry was more fond of Mullendore's music than Justman was). You'd think if Justman was really unhappy with the "Conscience" score he would have messed with it more in the episode--of course it was the episode that Justman was vocal about disliking, and he may have just felt like nothing was really going to save it, they had paid for and recorded the music and they might as well use it (and he was happy to use cues from it right afterward in "City on the Edge of Forever").

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 28, 2013 - 1:42 PM   
 By:   Midnight Mike   (Member)

Other examples are the dropped flybys from "Catspaw" and "Paradise Syndrome," which are striking in and of themselves, but ranged outside the approach established in prior scores.


I love the flyby's from Catspaw, but they do make it sound like the show was called:

"U.S.S. Enterprise, Medical Frigate!"

It sounds like a doctor show, maybe it would have been good for that Dr. Mcoy spin off show nobody ever thought of. smile

Mike

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 29, 2013 - 6:13 AM   
 By:   tex1272   (Member)

One of those flybys on "Catspaw" sound very "Wagon Train to the Stars" to me.

 
 Posted:   Jan 29, 2013 - 8:33 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

Thought it sounded kind of Adam 12 to me. Or maybe Barnaby Jones? It occurs to me that I have no idea what either of these shows actually sounded like... Well, I must have some idea of Barnaby Jones, because for decades I have been saying that Star Trek IV sounded like it.

 
 Posted:   Jan 29, 2013 - 8:46 AM   
 By:   Heath   (Member)

Judd for the Defense is stupendous.

Yeah, that's a pretty good Courage TV theme. Quite Goldsmith-ish (Westerns of the period).

"Judd For The Defence: Starring that actor who looks like Darren McGavin but isn't*. Tonight's episohhDDD... Beyond Vengeance".


*Although in that picture, he looks a bit like Kevin Spacey.

 
 Posted:   Jan 29, 2013 - 1:53 PM   
 By:   Adm Naismith   (Member)



Final question for those who have mentioned "noodly" and "noodling" - What does it mean?


When a musician noodles, they just kind of plays aimlessly without any particular purpose. Sort of daydreaming in sound, doodling on a piece of paper, or just messing around to see what an instrument or some idea in their head sounds like.

When I describe a a score as 'noodly' I feel the composer is trying to fill time and/or run in little circles to build to a larger idea, but without adding particular thematic ideas or repeating figures.

 
 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2013 - 3:48 AM   
 By:   Graham S. Watt   (Member)

Thanks Admiral! I use the term "treading water". By the way, I must say I hear NO noodling nor treading water in any of Duning's scores.

 
 Posted:   Jan 30, 2013 - 4:18 AM   
 By:   Mr. Flint   (Member)

Thanks Admiral! I use the term "treading water". By the way, I must say I hear NO noodling nor treading water in any of Duning's scores.

Nor do I, but oftentimes, it's in the eye of the beholder (or the ear of the listener). That "treading water", as you put it, can become really annoying by a lesser composer, but in the case of Duning, who had to underscore many minutes of sometimes repetitive action scenes in "Children" (all the "whamming" stuff), he did a tremendous job. His music does express a kind of delirious, psychotic sonic soundscape, and in quite an interesting way. Some may call it "noodling", but it was Duning's way of expressing what was given to him by the screenplay. In my opinion, he delivered magnificiently!

 
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