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Posted: |
Oct 22, 2008 - 2:33 PM
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By: |
Thor
(Member)
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Are you guys serious (no pun intended)? Goldsmith injecting SERIOUSNESS into the proceedings? I can't believe we're watching the same film!
The film was neither very realistic nor very serious in the first place, and Goldsmith's score removes any last remnants of seriousness there may have been, so that it becomes a totally overblown, über-patriotic, hilariously campy affair with lots of entertainment value. Newman's score, on the other hand, certainly makes things more serious and "standard", but it lacks G's melodic finesse and cool, odd-meter rhythms that is part of the aforementioned entertainment value.
In short, Goldsmith's score is bad in a good way.
Newman's score is run-of-the-mill, but fitting of the type of movie it is accompanying.
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Posted: |
Oct 22, 2008 - 3:23 PM
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By: |
Rnelson
(Member)
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Are you guys serious (no pun intended)? Goldsmith injecting SERIOUSNESS into the proceedings? I can't believe we're watching the same film!
The film was neither very realistic nor very serious in the first place, and Goldsmith's score removes any last remnants of seriousness there may have been, so that it becomes a totally overblown, über-patriotic, hilariously campy affair with lots of entertainment value. Newman's score, on the other hand, certainly makes things more serious and "standard", but it lacks G's melodic finesse and cool, odd-meter rhythms that is part of the aforementioned entertainment value.
In short, Goldsmith's score is bad in a good way.
Newman's score is run-of-the-mill, but fitting of the type of movie it is accompanying.
Thor, you really seem to be an all or nothing guy. I think we all agree that this movie is just popcorn escapism (you know, like 75% of all movies made in the world).
It's an action movie and that's all. But there's a big difference between escapism and camp. Escapism doesn't necessarily mean camp or parody and that's what you seem to think they were going for. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings is fantasy escapism but the scores treat the material seriously within the realm of its own existence. Movies like Rambo, Die Hard and yes, Air Force One all do the same.
As ridiculous as the proceedings may seem (and certainly the composers were aware of this) the music should not make fun of the material because that goes against the whole point.
I think Newman was attempting to take his score in that direction but it just comes across as somehow too literal and cartoony.
Goldsmith's pushes the same buttons but does so more appropriately and more effectively, IMO.
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I thought the Get Radek cue sounded more like Airport 1975.
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Are you guys serious (no pun intended)? Goldsmith injecting SERIOUSNESS into the proceedings? I can't believe we're watching the same film!
Watch the two motorcade sequences before you jump to conclusions, because those the ones where I really feel the difference. (It's less obvious in 'Get Radek' and 'Hijacking', and I doubt he was rejected on the basis of those cues, though the identification of the parachutists as 'noble soldiers' in the former at 1:30 possibly comes earlier than it should.)
There is an expression in English about the man who slipped on the banana peel - what's funny is not that he slipped, but that he indignantly insists that his slipping was 'not funny'. And I think you're making the mistake of assuming I meant I take the film seriously, when what I said was that Newman's music tells me the film doesn't even take itself seriously. I don't take the film seriously any which way, and they're too different routes to humour, but with Goldsmith, I'm seriously laughing, because it's so straight-faced. With Newman, there's an air of lampooning running through imagery, and it's just not as funny.
Why does the Goldsmith score take things more seriously? It doesn't question what we see, but supports it absolutely wholeheartedly, no matter how ridiculous the sentiment. I can't imagine Goldsmith's score fitting a Pixar movie about a comical group of insects trying to take back a patch of garden. Newman's on the other hand, I actually heard very similar music in exactly such a film. These extra-film associations have a way of bringing down a house of cards (which a hysterical Reaganesque thriller is, ultimately).
I mean, look at the cue Newman wrote for the motorcade sequence. He actually lines up a cue change with the secret service men getting out of the presidential cars, which makes it look funny. Goldsmith sensibly scores the scene more for a mood of patriotism and ignore that particular action.
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I hated the film, and as a consequence, I didn't remember the score in the slightest. But 10 years later (last year), I was shopping in a used CD store and came across the soundtrack. I was in a "gimme some fresh unheard Goldsmith" mood, so I grabbed it for $5. I was pleasantly surprised in that I really enjoyed the score, especially the Hijacking track. But in context, I think the music probably only made a bad film worse, so I had mentally blocked every note. I probably would have experienced the same blockage with Newman's score, the difference being that I would not have purchased it years later 'cause Newman is very hit and miss with me.
This is one of those cases where the music works wonderfully all on its own. I can't ever imagine sitting through that film again with its silly lapses in logic and its toy planes. 
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Posted: |
Oct 22, 2008 - 8:59 PM
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By: |
David Maxx
(Member)
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After Air Force One is finished, I might tackle Shore's RANSOM.
Ooh, I was just going to suggest that! I'd love to see it. The track titles on the ******* are so vague, it's so hard to find where most of them go. I was, however, able to sync up the "Kidnapping" cue (along with a few others). Shore blows Horner's version right out of the water, and it's not just because it's more exciting to listen to on its own. Horner was aiming for mushy gushy tragedy, which doesn't sink in until AFTER a situation like that. Shore, however, understood that the first few minutes contain sheer terror and panic (especially for the audience, who have the upper hand of knowing about the kidnappers' involvement).
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Posted: |
Oct 22, 2008 - 10:38 PM
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By: |
The Mutant
(Member)
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After Air Force One is finished, I might tackle Shore's RANSOM.
Ooh, I was just going to suggest that! I'd love to see it. The track titles on the ******* are so vague, it's so hard to find where most of them go. I was, however, able to sync up the "Kidnapping" cue (along with a few others). Shore blows Horner's version right out of the water, and it's not just because it's more exciting to listen to on its own. Horner was aiming for mushy gushy tragedy, which doesn't sink in until AFTER a situation like that. Shore, however, understood that the first few minutes contain sheer terror and panic (especially for the audience, who have the upper hand of knowing about the kidnappers' involvement).
Cool. Good to know that scene fits. Once I get my hands on the DVD, I'll try that one first.
Up next is another action scene from Air Force One (Missile)
Should be up soon.
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Posted: |
Oct 23, 2008 - 1:18 AM
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By: |
cirtap
(Member)
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Let me first say this. I like Jerry Goldsmith's effort. BUT, as they all do, there were some changes. That is why Joel McNeely was brought on board also. There was some last minute editing for AFO. Jerry was already bouncing into another project.
But OUR problem is this. We have heard Jerry's score way before Newmans, so we all know the in's and out's of what Jerry did, and YES we all are all familar what Jerry could do for a action score. What is NOT familar to all of us, is that WE didn't know that Randy Newman could write a action score. Well this intense of a action score.
What I have heard is that Randy Newmans score was rejected by the first test audiences. Newman completed the score and all of it was in the film. BUT when those testers heard it and saw it was Randy Newman, it is similar to Henry Mancini, who mostly did romantic movies or comedies. That is why when we all see Mancini's name on like Lifeforce we go HUH???
What it truly needed was Jerry Goldsmith. HIS main theme to AFO is truly majestic and towering. Where as with Newman's it is much more the leaner side of Patriotic.
This is what goes wrong when U allow ur film to be seen by test audiences. THEY sometimes don't get it either. I am not saying that Newman's score to AFO is bad, or even good. I am saying that We are all used to Goldsmith's style. We all know what he could do with a action score as he did with AFO.
The score I would like to hear is the rejected score to The Patriot. Dean Devlin on the request of Mel Gibson had to get rid of David Arnold, because the stories I heard was that Arnold couldn't get past ID4. Gibson wanted a more majestic and awe inspiring score, which Arnold couldn't deliver, SO here comes John Williams to save the day. AND he did.
...AND this is the same reason I heard about Howard Shore for King Kong, he couldn't get beyong those Bored of the Rings flics. I remember John Williams saying years ago, and including Henry Mancini, U must put down the score after you scored the film.
That is NOT true with here I go and will say his name james horner. We all know he doesn't put down his scores, they get a new life, a new twist, and new breath of life in at least 3 or 4 more scores, and until he sticks a fork in those notes.
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This is an epiphany.
I have not seen this silly B-picture cum A-programmer since I last saw it in 1998 on cable when I was residing in Memphis, Tennessee, and I did not pay to see it theatrically the year before.
I think it's rather "stoopid" to argue the merits of either score because they were both servicable lip gloss for a feeble, ultimately forgettable piece of dross.
We are not talking Cinematic Art here. It's idle to argue about something that's really not worth arguing about.
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