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 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 7:57 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)


Kirk - "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."

The episode The Ultimate Computer was centered around the Wargames trial and testing the M5 computer for military maneuvers. You don't equip a starship with phasers, photon torpedoes, deflector shields, etc. unless you expect to go into combat.






Thanks: that's the quote I was looking for above. And you're quite right. Anyone who'd arm a ship with nuclear weapons that isn't a warship is a pure madman!

 
 
 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 8:12 AM   
 By:   (Member)   (Member)

Some of the comments on the other side of the board got me thinking that the question really deserved its own thread.

In the TV shows and films there has been a lot of evidence to support a yea-or-nay, either way.

What do you all think?


This is a globalist army: the New World Order before its time.




"Star Trek" is an allegory of the America government dominating the world as imperialists.

 
 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 9:09 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

I'd like to know how Starfleet is financed? big grin

They bartered. Tribbles for Dilithium Crystals. wink

 
 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 10:13 AM   
 By:   Dyfrynt   (Member)

Believe me, at the time it was refreshing and uplifting to think we humans could achieve to be better in the future, even if just on a television show.


You were THERE.

So was I.



That's interesting William. That we both partook of these experiences at the time, and view them so differently. I would enjoy sitting over a cup of coffee and talking to you about all this some day, if we ever have the chance.

 
 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 10:18 AM   
 By:   Dyfrynt   (Member)


"Star Trek" is an allegory of the America government dominating the world as imperialists.


You are right. The original series was the final years of America believing we had the one true way, and that it was our mission to bring our way of life to the rest of the world. This concept can be seen in episode after episode where Kirk ignores the Prime Directive to bring a backwards (by our standards) society into the light.

Kinda off topic, but true never the less!

 
 
 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 11:11 AM   
 By:   Michael24   (Member)

"Star Trek" is an allegory of the America government dominating the world as imperialists.

Um . . . okay. It's always interesting (and sometimes downright bizarre) to see the ideas that some people think they see in things.

 
 Posted:   May 26, 2013 - 7:46 PM   
 By:   JJH   (Member)



"Star Trek" is an allegory of the America government dominating the world as imperialists.





iWeep


 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 12:07 AM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)



Ron Pulliam up there says he sees it as naval, and he should know.

Perhaps some Trekkie out there can remember the episode where Kirk says, 'I'm a soldier', in response to some crisis of command or the like?
.


The entire franchise SCREAMS nautical military structure.

James Tiberius Kirk "may" have, in a moment of scriptwriting blindness, been given the line "I am a soldier", but no soldier ever rose to the rank of Admiral. Had he been a soldier, he would have risen to the rank of General.

Starfleet is not U.S. Navy or U.S. Coast Guard...in fact, it's not U.S. anything. It's a multi-national entity.

The "Enterprise" is a nautical vessel. It's a star ship sailing the charted/uncharted eternity that is space.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 12:11 AM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

I'd like to know how Starfleet is financed? big grin

Through revenues from mining and selling to other planets within the federation.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 6:01 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Interesting discussion, albeit in the realms of make-believe.

I've been thinking that the crew of Enterprise (TOS) can't just be military per se. They're also scientists and as scientists the tendency is to be un-military. Scientists have a kind of discipline which is controlled by an overwhelming desire to uncover the deep truths of even the most appararently simple things. Spock and Bones have this overriding forward momentum that drives them as part of their personalities. They don't need the gruntish kick up the backside to get forward and operate as a team. They do it as a matter of course because it's in their blood (red or green) to investigate the frontiers of the unknown.

I think the colourful uniforms from TOS were brilliant, and not just in terms of colour. This gave the military overtones the soft touch of informality even if those colours were to a purpose. Now, it makes you wonder why those colours were dispensed with when the star trekkers were given their first motion picture mission/adventure.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 6:27 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)


I think the colourful uniforms from TOS were brilliant, and not just in terms of colour. This gave the military overtones the soft touch of informality even if those colours were to a purpose. Now, it makes you wonder why those colours were dispensed with when the star trekkers were given their first motion picture mission/adventure.


The colorful uniforms were a product of its time. Just as the bridge was very colorful with red accents on the railings and doors. Star Trek started just as television was moving from B&W into "In Living Color". wink

Edit: The Motion Picture uniforms were toned down to pastels because they felt those bright colors would be to "loud" for the big screen. Even with the change in WOK, the colors are "darker" than TOS colors.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 10:29 AM   
 By:   Dyfrynt   (Member)

Interesting discussion, albeit in the realms of make-believe.



Depends which reality you live in. wink

Been giving the "military" thing a lot of thought and it seems to me that a case can be made that Star Fleet is closer to a modern day police force as seen in the U.S. and Europe.

One of the major roles of police is to keep the peace. This was established in TOS as part of the Enterprise's job as well. Out on the frontier of space, it was the Star Ship that had the authority to settle disputes between planets.

The police have ranks, but they don't go around saluting everyone. You've never seen anyone salute anyone on Star Trek TOS. Star Fleet is a much more informal organization than any military organization I have ever seen.

The police have "uniforms" but they are more casual wear than the military. Detectives don't have any uniform at all except the modern day uniform of the three piece suit. Which stands for professionalism (at least in theory).

The police force is voluntary and you are hired and can be fired. So is Star Fleet. There is no term of service one must finish.

Unlike the police (and the military), every crew member of a star ship is an officer. Ensign is the lowest rank. There is nothing comparable to an "enlisted rank".

Finally we never saw soldiers on the Enterprise. The crew members that went with an away team to protect the group (the infamous Red Shirts) were security specialists. They were trained to fight, similar to the training of modern day police. They were not trained to the level of armed soldiers.

Finishing this off, the crew of the Enterprise was split up into Command, Sciences, and Engineering. Though the ship had a brig, it was maintained by security specialists. There is no equivalent to a soldier to be found. Nor can I ever remember seeing a crew member in TOS whose training was overtly as a soldier.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 10:45 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

A police force might be a better analogy. Though remember in TMP, Bones was "forced" back into "enlisted" service by the "little known, seldom used, reactivation clause".

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 10:56 AM   
 By:   Grecchus   (Member)

Yeah, I think we're getting there.

In TMP, the crew wore identical colours and the outfits were loose-fitting because a starship bridge is a shirt-sleeve environment. Wise made it clear he wanted that impression to gain maximum sway. That reminds me of the crew of ocean and airliners. They wear formal attire because they have to be a cut above the rest and are formal representatives of their organisation as well as professionals and mission specialists in what they do. They are the elite of their respective civilisations. They have trained and made the grade in all departments. I remember Bone's line to Kirk in TMP: "Jim, you're pushing. Your people know their jobs." So there is something of a concensus, although, the captain has the final word.

 
 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 1:48 PM   
 By:   Matt S.   (Member)


Unlike the police (and the military), every crew member of a star ship is an officer. Ensign is the lowest rank. There is nothing comparable to an "enlisted rank".

Finally we never saw soldiers on the Enterprise. The crew members that went with an away team to protect the group (the infamous Red Shirts) were security specialists. They were trained to fight, similar to the training of modern day police. They were not trained to the level of armed soldiers.

Finishing this off, the crew of the Enterprise was split up into Command, Sciences, and Engineering. Though the ship had a brig, it was maintained by security specialists. There is no equivalent to a soldier to be found. Nor can I ever remember seeing a crew member in TOS whose training was overtly as a soldier.


First off, there ARE enlisted ranks aboard the starships. We don't see them very often, but they are there. Miles O'Brien was a chief petty officer, an enlisted man. Also, in "The Drumhead," there was a subplot involving an enlisted medical technician (Simon Tarses) who was under suspicion because he was part Romulan and hid his heritage when he enlisted. There is even a scene between him and Picard where he discussed his decision to enlist rather than go the Academy and become an officer.

As for there being no "soldiers" aboard the Enterprise, well, that's because Starfleet is more equivalent to a Navy than an Army. Many U.S. Navy ships might have a complement of U.S. Marines, but the Naval personnel are certainly trained, and trained well, to fight. (Think of the MACOs aboard the NX-01 Enterprise as equivalent to Marines).

There were many wartime episodes of Deep Space Nine that explicitly showed Starfleet "soldiers." (....Nor Battle to the Strong, and The Siege of AR-558 come immediately to mind.) They wore black combat uniforms with division stripes across the chest.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 5:30 PM   
 By:   Dyfrynt   (Member)

Matt, I think I made it clear I was referring to the Original Series. Which is the first and thus closest to Roddenberry's vision.

Next Generalization and Deep Space Nine are entirely different animals. There were NO enlisted crew on board the original TV series. None. Zip. Zero. I challenge you to find a noncom in any episode of TOS. You won't because you can't.

That went for the TOS movies as well. Yes there was a tactical team used as a strike force in ST5, though I still considered that more a Swat team than a group of space marines.

And in ST6, Meyers screwed it up when he showed the junior crew living dormitory style in bunk beds. It was well established in the TV series that every one of the crew had private quarters. Meyers blew it there.

 
 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 6:17 PM   
 By:   Matt S.   (Member)

Matt, I think I made it clear I was referring to the Original Series. Which is the first and thus closest to Roddenberry's vision.

Next Generalization and Deep Space Nine are entirely different animals. There were NO enlisted crew on board the original TV series. None. Zip. Zero. I challenge you to find a noncom in any episode of TOS. You won't because you can't.

That went for the TOS movies as well. Yes there was a tactical team used as a strike force in ST5, though I still considered that more a Swat team than a group of space marines.

And in ST6, Meyers screwed it up when he showed the junior crew living dormitory style in bunk beds. It was well established in the TV series that every one of the crew had private quarters. Meyers blew it there.


Noncom in TOS? Yeoman Rand. Yeomen are NOT officers, but enlisted naval personnel who are usually assigned to various administrative duties. This is backed up in Star Trek canon in the Voyager episode "Flashback," where Rand teases Tuvok about trying to curry favor with Captain Sulu in order to earn a promotion, saying it took her a number of years (I forget he exact quote) just to make "ensign."

And with the TOS movies, there is a "Chief DiFalco" in TMP (actually played by Shatner's wife, I believe). That doesn't automatically make her a noncom, but there is little other reason to call her "chief" unless that is what she was.

As far as the dorms in Star Trek VI, it is absolutely plausible that the noncoms bunk together, and only the senior officers get their own quarters. Otherwise, why do they address the guy with the funky feet as "Crewman" Dax? If he is at least an Ensign, wouldn't they call him Ensign Dax? Then there were the two assasins, Yeomen Burke & Samno.

It makes no sense from a practical standpoint that all 430 men and women aboard the original Enterprise were all officers. In the military, officers are management and the enlisted are the workforce. No business, military or civilian, can operate with all managers.

Just because it wasn't explicitly seen on TOS doesn't mean it didn't exist. A reasonable degree of extrapolation is necessary here.

I realize the later spinoff series got away from Roddenberry's vision, but even in the TOS timeframe, I can't see Starfleet as anything other than a military organization. When the Klingons were about to invade in "Errand of Mercy," it was Starfleet who was about to fight them until the Organians stepped in.

It was Kirk and the Enterprise who invaded Romulan space, conducted espionage and stole a piece of critical military hardware--the cloaking device, specifically to maintain the balance of power.

Starfleet's mission is much more broad than the mission of the US Navy, for sure. While the Navy exists solely to defend the United States (as is any country's navy, not just the US's), Starfleet is there for exploration and scientific discovery. But if the enemy comes, it's Starfleet who stands to fight.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 6:47 PM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

In other words they made it up as they went along. wink

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 7:57 PM   
 By:   Elmo Bernstein   (Member)

Although pitched as "Wagon Train to the stars" Star Trek was obviously modeled on the exploratory voyages of Captain James Cook ("Captain James Kirk" being an obvious reference to the famous explorer). Cook brought arms and marines on his exploratory voyages. Star Trek's security guards were costumed in red shirts much like the "redcoats" charged with defense of British ships and crew. Whether exploring the Earth in the 18th century or the galaxy in the 23rd, it would be foolish to do so without arms and soldiers trained in their use. So yeah, Starfeet is definitely military.

 
 Posted:   May 27, 2013 - 8:55 PM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

The entire franchise SCREAMS nautical military structure.

James Tiberius Kirk "may" have, in a moment of scriptwriting blindness, been given the line "I am a soldier", but no soldier ever rose to the rank of Admiral. Had he been a soldier, he would have risen to the rank of General.

Starfleet is not U.S. Navy or U.S. Coast Guard...in fact, it's not U.S. anything. It's a multi-national entity.




Spoken like a seaman. But when Kirk says 'soldier' you have to remember that the military in 'space' aren't going to be land-based, except perhaps as marines of a sort. They 'fly', they 'sail', they have no 'land' for manoeuvres. That distinction disappears. He therefore uses the term 'soldier' to denote his military status. He can hardly say he's a 'seaman'.

Of course it's not US anything: it's BASED on US Navy though.


Not to sound like some loathsome armchair general, I do have to say there are only about 30% of folk who'd make good military strategists around here with any sense of REALITY!

It again needs reiterated: a SCENTIFIC mission of that type needs DEFENCE against any enemies or dangers known or unknown. It MUST therefore be carried out by a MILITARY vessel, since no other vessel could or should be countenanced carrying such terrifying firepower. We're to believe a starship can destroy an entire planet. Do you SERIOUSLY think anyone other than the miltary have the training to be trusted with that?!!! Think it through gentlemen. I repeat: scientific missions of this kind MUST be carried out by military vessels or with military escorts in ANY century.


What's REALLY happening here is that there is a dualistic split in many modern minds between the warrior and the scientist. Nice scientist cannot be nasty warrior. But on the frontiers, that's NAIVE. It's an interesting sociological insight into the current zeitgeist though.




And y'know, it's part of the 'allegory' too. Noah had his ark, Jason had his Argo, the Osiris soul boat has to be strong enough to encounter the dangers of the watches of the night, and the ego-ship needs defences if it's to negotiate the chaos waters of the unconscious. Otherwise disaster, madness or inflation. All of which James T. Kirk was antidote for!

 
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