Richard Donner revealed that he first offered "Superman" to Jerry Goldsmith and he agreed. However, they went way over schedule and Goldsmith dropped out. Then, Donner offered the film to John Williams who excitedly said yes. Then, they again went over schedule and Donner lost Williams. But Goldsmith was available. The dates seemed okay to both Goldsmith and Donner and it looked like it was going to happen. Then, more time went by and Goldsmith dropped. John Williams was then again available. They recorded the score a few weeks before turning the film over to Warner Brothers.

DONNER ADMITS THAT WILLIAMS WAS HIS FIRST CHOICE BUT WAS OBLIGATED TO OFFER IT TO GOLDSMITH INITIALLY BECAUSE OF 'THE OMEN'. BUT HE ALWAYS WANTED JOHN WILLIAMS.

Probably because Superman needed a strong, heroic melody.

Very interesting.

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Originally posted by jwtrade:

Probably because Superman needed a strong, heroic melody.

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And, as we know, Goldsmith has never written any of those.
Haven't seen the DVD. Wondering if Donner discusses his being fired/walking out on (pick your preferred version) and suing/being sued by (pick again) the Salkinds over Superman I/II. I recall that by the time it came out, everyone was suing everyone else, including Brando, who claimed he didn't know that he was simultaneously filming scenes for Superman I and II.

And yes, Kidder was essentially fired in Superman III. Look how, for her five minute scene, they provided her with unattractive hair style and makeup. They made her so repulsive that audiences related to Annette O'Toole's character more.

I like Goldsmith. Yes, he can write beautiful melodies. But I will always contend that no other composer could have written Superman's entire score successfully except Williams.

Look at Goldsmith's Supergirl score. Nice theme--but not much else.

And don't say that it was because it was a crappy movie. We all know that good scores can accomadate bad films.

Does anyone know what projects, if any, Goldsmith was committed to that prevented him from scoring Superman?

Superman was initially set for December 77, then Summer 78, and finally December 78.

A Goldsmith SUPERMAN would have been fascinating indeed, especially from the Goldsmith of that period. Probably would have sounded a bit like a cross between THE SWARM and the yet-to-be-conceived STAR TREK.

Odd that Donner would say he felt "obligated" to hire Goldsmith, he's not exactly known for loyalty to composers except perhaps Michael Kamen (and even then he bounced Kamen's score to ASSASSINS). He doesn't seem to have tried very hard to work with either Goldsmith or Williams again (he did want Williams for SCROOGED, but that ultimately went to Danny Elfman, and Donner was an executive producer on THE FINAL CONFLICT, whatever that means.)

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A Goldsmith SUPERMAN? Now that would've been cool.

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Well, there was the Goldsmith Supergirl (also a Salkinds production); while a terrible movie (at least the domestic version), a really good Goldsmith score that I had regretted not picking up for several years because of the film itself.

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Donner was an executive producer on THE FINAL CONFLICT, whatever that means.

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That's generally a contractual thing, a title in name only. I doubt Donner ever showed up on the set, went to any meetings, read the script, or made any decisions about the film.

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Does anyone know what projects, if any, Goldsmith was committed to that prevented him from scoring Superman?

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During 77-78, Goldsmith was working on Capricorn One, Damien:Omen 2, The Swarm, Coma, Cassandra Crossing, Damnation Alley, Twilight's Last Gleaming, Islands in the Stream, Boys From Brazil, and probably prepping for Alien and The Great Train Robbery. Quite a busy schedule, if you ask me.
[This message has been edited by Greg Bryant (edited 25 April 2001).]

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Originally posted by Greg Bryant:
Well, there was the Goldsmith Supergirl (also a Salkinds production); while a terrible movie (at least the domestic version), a really good Goldsmith score that I had regretted not picking up for several years because of the film itself.

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But I doubt a 1978 Goldsmith Superman would be anything like the existing Supergirl. I don't think he'd have used as much synths in 1978, for example (yeah, Logans Run came earlier and was very heavy on the synths side, but those synths are very different from Supergirl's).

NP: George Bizet: Carmen (Baltsa, Carreras, van Dam; Berlin Philharmonic, Herbert von Karajan)

This is very interesting, indeed. Maybe Goldsmith put his conceived SUPERMAN theme on the back burner for a few years and used it for the film's distant relative!

Dan

As we all know...it was a huge critical and financial hit.

Similar things were said about "Titanic" -- Movieline magazine said it was going to be one of the great flops of all time....Hah!

As for "Supergirl" vs. "Superman" - different movies, different scores, different strokes...

For me, you can cite as many reasons as you want why you "think" Supergirl is a better score...and all of them won't matter...I am intimately acquainted with complete scores of both films. "Supergirl" is a poor cousin...third cousin at best...

If it's backburnered from Goldsmith's original thoughts about scoring "Superman," I'm afraid it turned black and stuck to the pot.
R
[This message has been edited by Ron Pulliam (edited 25 April 2001).]

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Originally posted by Dan Hobgood:
I can't spend time discussing this now, but, soon enough, I'll be back with at least five reasons why SUPERGIRL is, in my estimation, a (much) better score than SUPERMAN. (SUPERGIRL--A nice theme but nothing else...HA! We shall see.)

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Ah, good, that gives us time to guess...

1) Supergirl is by Jerry Goldsmith, whereas Superman - The Movie is by John Williams.
2) I (Dan Hobgood) have repeatedly shown why Jerry Goldsmith is a better scorer than John Williams, so therefore Supergirl must be better than Superman.
3) This would support my (Dan Hobgood's) oft-stated point about Jerry Goldsmith being a better scorer than John Williams.
4) It's less popular, and therefore better to any really knowledgeable person.
5) It conveniently fits on a single disc for easy carrying.

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/biggrin.gif">

- Just kidding, Dan... http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/wink.gif">

- JE

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“There it stuck fast, and would move no more...”
[This message has been edited by Joe Esrey (edited 25 April 2001).]

Personally, I agree with Marian that SUPERGIRL probably doesn't much resemble what Goldsmith might have done with SUPERMAN back in 1978, and I doubt very much that that his SUPERMAN theme would have sounded much like that, if given the chance.

The Williams score is already just about perfect, so I can't say I'm sorry how it turned out, although it would have been a nice feather in Jerry's cap (or ponytail?)

Get rid of that High School Band that butchered up John Williams score and let Williams rescore Superman 2, and if anyone of you guys say you like that Ken Thorne Band over Williams and the LSO, you have been sniffing and smoking way too much!!!!

But back to Superman, Williams has so many different motiffs at the begining. So many different themes and melodys. No theme repeats itself. Except for Superman and Lois Lanes.

I cannot wait to hear Richard and Tom talk about Superman. Geoffrey Unworths photography is beautiful, rich and I know on the DVD no bleed over of the colors. This sorta dream white was the Planet Krypton theme, and a rich brown, wavy wheat, lush greens were Smallville Theme. And Red and Blue and White was the Metropolis Theme.

NP: The Complete Score to Superman **** A score above all scores. John Williams

Superman, along with The Empire Strikes Back, is probably the highest point is John Williams' career. But I must say that it is the rich thematic material that he develops in the first half of the score ( the Main Title, the Krypton and Smallville material, the Fortress of Solitude and the love theme) that makes the score so monumental in my book. The second half with all the "superhero" and villian music is much less interesting. On the 2 Cd set I am awed and amazed by disk one but I hardly ever listen to disk two.

Still, we have Williams' grand vision as well as Goldsmith's other remarkable contributions from the period. 1978 was a fantastic year for Goldsmith scores and I'm grateful we have his grand vision as well.

[This message has been edited by Rnelson (edited 26 April 2001).]

Here we go:

Primarily, this is a matter of consistency, and we can attribute much of what makes SUPERGIRL more effective dramatically relates to this.

1) Thematic unity. Somewhere along the way in this thread, someone made the statement that SUPERMAN is more thematic than SUPERGIRL. This is inherently false. SUPERGIRL has a consistently applied theme, and--much as a film's rudiments all relate to its essence or message--all of Goldsmith's score is derived from his theme. This is not the case in SUPERMAN. (Williams' score fits into that semi-leitmotif category here again.)

2. Consistent and insighful use of electronic components. Goldsmith has always used an electronic ensemble to his communicative advantage, and, here again, he thoroughly does this well for the benefit of a film's audience.

3. Goldsmith's score tends to add dimension to his respective film more often. Williams' space opera, etc. scores by and large tended to reflect what one already could discern from the visual image/dialogue. Williams is a very good emotionalist, and he does this well. However, there are many instances in SUPERGIRL (and in many, many other films with Goldsmith's imprint) where, without the music, one could not glean the significance or intended resonance of the film itself.

There's more to say on this overall, and I wish that there was more time to do it.

Joe, I found your list particularly amusing, and, actually, your first two points represent my views well. However (not to take a joke too seriously), it lacks the more fundamental points that I included here. These are reasons why--if I listed your first two reasons sometime in the future--you simply could associate them back to my reasons in this post.

But enough already....

DH
[This message has been edited by Dan Hobgood (edited 26 April 2001).]

Strewth, doesn't bear thinking about!!!

Of course, I do still disagree (but respectfully, of course!). http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/wink.gif">

Specifically addressing your points, I think your first may simply boil down to individual taste; certainly one could easily argue that composing several themes and using variations on them is at least more difficult than composing essentially one theme and using variations on it, though I'd certainly agree that just because an approach might be more difficult or demanding doesn't make the end result any better. That said, I think - no, feel - Williams' approach and the resultant score simply work astonishingly well. The score can move me to tears, especially in conjunction with the film (though to be fair, one should note that Williams had a much better film to work with).

Your second point is uncontestable - I wholeheartedly concur about Goldsmith being a master of utilizing electronic effects to tremendous advantage. That said, I don't think it directly relates to this discussion; John Williams is capable of using more traditional orchestral sounds to equally great advantage (as is Goldsmith, to be sure, but then Williams has also used electronic effects to great advantage on occasion, himself). Saying Goldsmith brilliantly uses electronics in Supergirl doesn't necessarily mean anything in relation to Superman.

For your third point, I have to admit I have little rebuttal; frankly, I haven't seen Supergirl anywhere nearly recently enough to recall how the score supports the film. That disclaimer out, I have to say that perhaps if the rest of Supergirl weren't such a mess it wouldn't need the music to do as much of its work for it. Superman certainly uses the score to reflect emotions already largely present in the scenes, I'll grant you, but it also establishes tones all by itself at at least some points - Otis wending his way back to Luthor's lair pursued by the law, while Luthor watches from his lair, for example; moreover, the score adds so much to the underlying emotions and other aspects of the scenes it doesn't merely reflect, but considerably amplifies - in my opinion, of course. Without the score I think much of the film would still be exciting or romantic or poignant or whatever, but the score makes it so much more each of those.

Mind you, I'm not at all saying Goldsmith's score is inferior or anything like that; I'm not even saying that Goldsmith couldn't have composed a better score (though I do find it unlikely). I'm just saying that Williams' score is indeed a truly great one. I don't need to perceive one score as mediocre in order to recognize another score's greatness.

- JE

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“There it stuck fast, and would move no more...”
[This message has been edited by Joe Esrey (edited 26 April 2001).]