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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2017 - 6:20 PM
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By: |
cody1949
(Member)
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I don't know if GIANT was a failure, but I guess the sales were very low. What a shame, GIANT is a great Tiomkin score..
PFK, these were MV`s comments about the sales of the GIANT double CD last year:
1)
"Nope. Maybe one GA title this year. After the turd the very very expensive GIANT laid last year I figured why bother spending all that time and money on GA titles that no one buys?
MV"
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=63&threadID=67395&archive=0
2)
"If 1000 units of something like Giant of the Virgin Queen can't even sell then what's the point? It's a business and breaking even on a project doesn't help keep the lights on or even supply toliet paper.
MV"
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=2&threadID=116233&archive=0
So of course it was a failure for LLL and unfortunately not even the Waxman twofer and the North which had indeed been planned for 2016 have been released anymore till now. So why should we therefore expect a Steiner from LLL now?
Stefan, I don't expect a Steiner CD from LLL, it's just that someone had asked about it and MV had mentioned that a Steiner was a possibility, that was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago. Of course I "hope" LLL and other labels will issue a Steiner and other Golden Age composers too on CDs.
Yea, those quotes by MV are pretty discouraging.
Yes, I realize that LLL took a financial beating from GIANT and that is very sad. I do hope however that perhaps a Franz Waxman score from the "golden age" is still a possibility. Intrada has cut back on "golden age " releases in recent times,but when they do come through with one it is always something SPECTACULAR !
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2017 - 8:28 PM
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By: |
PFK
(Member)
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But Giant already had 2+ hours of music available if I remember correctly. The La La Land release sounds so much better, but perhaps that was an issue since a few Golden Age fans were happy with their previous CDs?
This is not really true. There was only a Soundstage boot CD available (more than 15 years ago!)with additional music which had not been on the official 40 minute Capitol CD of GIANT.
You could say the same for many other Golden Age scores which also already had boot CD releases a long time ago during the 90s. What about THE TEN COMMANDMENTS or LAND OF THE PHARAOHS or SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS?
So if I follow your logic, the question would therefore be: Why even trying to release a new, expanded SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS CD at all if official Varese and double CD boot have already been available for older Golden Age collectors for a long time?
In addition, GIANT had the big bonus of being a James Dean movie which just for this reason alone should normally have attracted a much larger fan audience, but apparently it didn´t. So you can see how difficult it is nowadays with Golden Age titles in general and there are only a few - most of them already released - which still have a wider appeal. I think that´s the real problem - no matter whether the composer is Tiomkin, Newman or Steiner.
As to the (much too expensive) costs for licensing such older scores for example from Warners, you only have to read these comments by MV:
"For the most part, you would sell 1000 units (if you were lucky). The transfer costs (mandatory to do it in house at a place like WB, for instance), mastering (if they used one of our guys it would be much cheaper, but most likely they would farm it out to a name company and pay 3 to 4 times as much) and assembling (would have to hire someone to produce these things. A third party producer who doesn't work for the studio would most likely be the only economical bet for them) would be about $15k to $20k. And that's before any art, liner notes, printing and manufacturing (or cdr). Even if you do nothing packaging wise you still have to foot the bill for everything else. It ain't cheap, especially with this old stuff.
If companies like us don't do it, it won't get done.
MV"
Stefan, the above example from MV was about WB. It looks like with WB there are extra costs etc.
I get the impression that both Fox and Paramount are a little more reasonable to work with.
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Posted: |
Jan 15, 2017 - 8:40 PM
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By: |
PFK
(Member)
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I don't know if GIANT was a failure, but I guess the sales were very low. What a shame, GIANT is a great Tiomkin score..
PFK, these were MV`s comments about the sales of the GIANT double CD last year:
1)
"Nope. Maybe one GA title this year. After the turd the very very expensive GIANT laid last year I figured why bother spending all that time and money on GA titles that no one buys?
MV"
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=63&threadID=67395&archive=0
2)
"If 1000 units of something like Giant of the Virgin Queen can't even sell then what's the point? It's a business and breaking even on a project doesn't help keep the lights on or even supply toliet paper.
MV"
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=2&threadID=116233&archive=0
So of course it was a failure for LLL and unfortunately not even the Waxman twofer and the North which had indeed been planned for 2016 have been released anymore till now. So why should we therefore expect a Steiner from LLL now?
Stefan, I don't expect a Steiner CD from LLL, it's just that someone had asked about it and MV had mentioned that a Steiner was a possibility, that was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago. Of course I "hope" LLL and other labels will issue a Steiner and other Golden Age composers too on CDs.
Yea, those quotes by MV are pretty discouraging.
Yes, I realize that LLL took a financial beating from GIANT and that is very sad. I do hope however that perhaps a Franz Waxman score from the "golden age" is still a possibility. Intrada has cut back on "golden age " releases in recent times,but when they do come through with one it is always something SPECTACULAR !
Yes indeed Cody, Intrada has given us many wonderful Golden Age CDs over the years. I have hope too that Kritzerland will issue more Golden Age dramatic scores in the future best they can.
One problem with GIANT is that it's by Tiomkin. I know you and I will buy ANY Tiomkin, but for Golden Age composers I often read on this board about how fans will buy any Golden Age composer ...... but NOT Tiomkin. Maybe Tiomkin is not for all tastes.
While GIANT sold poorly with LLL, they HAVE had many Golden and Silver Age sell outs!
LLL Sold Out:
55 Days at Peking 2,500 copies
The Big Country 2,500
Gunfight at the OK Corral 2,000
The Robe 2,000
Shane 2,000
The Blue Max 2,000
It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World 2,000
I want to thank LLL for ALL of these great CDs! I hope LLL has not given up on future Golden Age CDs. I guess you have to choose carefully. I've always felt Golden Age westerns have the best chance of selling well.
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If anybody has the money for an orchestrator, a copyist, an orchestra (w/conductor), and a studio rental fee, I've got the conductor's score for BEND OF THE RIVER by Hans J. Salter.
Just saying.
(Oh, and the original tracks that Tony Thomas put on LP probably still exist, too.)
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Stefan, I don't expect a Steiner CD from LLL, it's just that someone had asked about it and MV had mentioned that a Steiner was a possibility, that was maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago.
But you have to consider that MV had mentioned a bit of interest in Steiner or even Korngold before the huge commercial failure of GIANT. And it was not only GIANT which failed miserably at the end of 2015, but also INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS, a famous sci-fi classic from 1956 which was another great disappointment and of which much more had been expected. And you can add Newman`s MAN HUNT from Fox as well which quite obviously was also a commercial flop for LLL. So you can quite clearly see how the market has changed within the last few years. Therefore also MV´s attittude towards releasing occasional Golden Age scores has changed.
Maybe Intrada will still release a late Steiner western from WB like THE HANGING TREE (if the legal problems can be solved at all!) or A DISTANT TRUMPET in the future, but I doubt that something like this will come from LLL.
Anyway, I don`t understand it at all what has happened with the material for A DISTANT TRUMPET. The score had been planned as a BYU release after A SUMMER PLACE more than 12 years ago and Ray Faiola had talked about it on this board as a "definitive release", but nothing happened anymore since that time. Can anyone tell me why?
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Stefan, the above example from MV was about WB. It looks like with WB there are extra costs etc.
I get the impression that both Fox and Paramount are a little more reasonable to work with.
I know that the above example was about WB and that they - as well as Universal - are more expensive than Fox or Paramount. This is also the reason why other labels like Quartet or Kritzerland have more easy access to the Paramount vaults. And Fox is of course also Kritzerland territory.
But LLL deals a lot with WB and the Waxman twofer which should still come from them will again be from WB. So if the Waxman will indeed be SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS, all these WB conditions which have been mentioned above do apply again. And just as with GIANT you can be sure that it will be very difficult to break even at all on such a CD project.
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And a 2-CD release of THE NUN'S STORY could also be possible.
Though I wonder who would actually buy it, apart from the 17 Waxman completists on these boards.
One of whom is myself.
(And, of course, let us not forget a long-hoped-for 2-CD legit release for the complete tracks to Steiner's HELEN OF TROY!)
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In 2015 MV already made more or less a hint that SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS would be released in the near future:
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=95701&forumID=1&archive=0
So I suppose that the planned Waxman twofer will probably contain the complete SPIRIT score. It also makes sense as it is - at least in the USA - a famous film and it is one of the few Waxmans which still may have a bit of commercial appeal nowadays
As to THE NUN´S STORY, there were already such large logistical problems with the different Rome and Hollywood recording sessions for the Stanyan CD that this would be a very complicated and probably even more expensive project. Just read what Steve Hoffman had written about his "wonderful times" producing the Stanyan CD in the early 90s:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-most-complicated-project-sh-ever-worked-on-franz-waxman-the-nuns-story-wb-soundtrack-cd.334396/
I don`t think that HELEN OF TROY will come at all as two different German bootleg CDs had already appeared.
And above all: As we all know, Warners don´t have the tapes anymore as they had been stolen and used by private collectors for producing those boots. So where should the original tapes now come from if WB doesn´t have them anymore?
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Posted: |
Jan 19, 2017 - 7:38 AM
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By: |
Joe Caps
(Member)
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I would love to have as complete as possible Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, I think Max got an Oscar nomination for this.
I would love to see releases of the later Steiner scores, especially all of Parrish, Ice Palace, Dark at the Top of the Stairs, Susan Slade.
A complete Helen of Troy would be great.
About the loss of some of these. When these scores were sent over to Chace audio for dupes and preservation. the original mags were NOT rhrown away. Also for preservation, at least three copies of each score were made onto DATS.
Someof these were true stereo, specifically Rome Adventure and Spencers Mountain.
I had heard some of these when being duped, as I was working on a bunch of projects at Chace at the time.
Also, there is still lots of Waxman and Herrmann around that has not been touched.
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I don't know what happened to them. Was there an announcement of some kind?
All I've heard is silence.
Somebody correct me if wrong, since I'm doing this from memory after only reading it once, but James will not be doing re-recordings anymore. I think there's one or two that haven't come out yet, but after that it's over. He can't afford to personally fund them anymore as the releases aren't profittable.
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I would love to have as complete as possible Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, I think Max got an Oscar nomination for this.
I would love to see releases of the later Steiner scores, especially all of Parrish, Ice Palace, Dark at the Top of the Stairs, Susan Slade.
A complete Helen of Troy would be great.
About the loss of some of these. When these scores were sent over to Chace audio for dupes and preservation. the original mags were NOT rhrown away. Also for preservation, at least three copies of each score were made onto DATS.
Someof these were true stereo, specifically Rome Adventure and Spencers Mountain.
I would also love to have MIRACLE OF OUR LADY OF FATIMA finally on an official CD, but when will it ever be released?
As to ROME ADVENTURE and SPENCER´S MOUNTAIN, it has often been mentioned on this board that apparently no original elements of them exist anymore at WB. See for example this posting by Ray Faiola from 2013:
"SPENCER'S MOUNTAIN only survives in Steiner acetates - about 20 minutes worth. YOUNGBLOOD HAWKE only survives in Steiner acetates, about 12 minutes; same with SUSAN SLADE. One cue from TWO ON A GUILLOTINE survives on acetate. Nothing on tape or disc from FORT DOBBS, RACHEL CADE, ROME ADVENTURE, JOHN PAUL JONES, PORTRAIT OF A MOBSTER."
http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=98014&forumID=1&archive=0
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Posted: |
Jan 19, 2017 - 9:39 AM
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By: |
Buss1974
(Member)
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And congrats Buss1974 for your impeccable taste in film composers including the legendary Max Steiner!
Thanks for Your generous words, PFK.
I agree with You: the Scannan cd is a treasure. Many wonderful suites, including the lovely Main Title from SPENCER MOUNTAIN and the one from JOHNNY BELINDA.
Actually I have to say that Max Steiner is at the very top of the list of my favourite film music composers. I have all of the recordings made by Morgan and Stromberg, and it's thank to their cds that I really discovered how masterly is his composing style and his versatility in all the genres: Film Noir, Western, Big Epics, Commedies, Romance etc...
He was not only a master melodist! Think to his scores for THE TREASURE SIERRA MADRE, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME, KING KONG and SON OF KONG (the Runaway Blues theme...!!!), or THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE, THEY DIED WITH THIER BOOTS ON, THE ADVENTURES OF DON JUAN or the great music from WHITE HEAT, discussed here. How can some people depreciate this Master? In any genre he left us milestones. What about THE SEARCHERS, or DODGE CITY? What about NOW, VOYAGER, A SUMMER PLACE or A STOLEN LIFE? I stop here but we could go on for years... The talent of Max Steiner needs to be appreciated in the complete scores and not only in 2 minutes tracks...
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Posted: |
Jan 19, 2017 - 8:30 PM
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By: |
PFK
(Member)
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And congrats Buss1974 for your impeccable taste in film composers including the legendary Max Steiner!
Thanks for Your generous words, PFK.
I agree with You: the Scannan cd is a treasure. Many wonderful suites, including the lovely Main Title from SPENCER MOUNTAIN and the one from JOHNNY BELINDA.
Actually I have to say that Max Steiner is at the very top of the list of my favourite film music composers. I have all of the recordings made by Morgan and Stromberg, and it's thank to their cds that I really discovered how masterly is his composing style and his versatility in all the genres: Film Noir, Western, Big Epics, Commedies, Romance etc...
He was not only a master melodist! Think to his scores for THE TREASURE SIERRA MADRE, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME, KING KONG and SON OF KONG (the Runaway Blues theme...!!!), or THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE, THEY DIED WITH THIER BOOTS ON, THE ADVENTURES OF DON JUAN or the great music from WHITE HEAT, discussed here. How can some people depreciate this Master? In any genre he left us milestones. What about THE SEARCHERS, or DODGE CITY? What about NOW, VOYAGER, A SUMMER PLACE or A STOLEN LIFE? I stop here but we could go on for years... The talent of Max Steiner needs to be appreciated in the complete scores and not only in 2 minutes tracks...
Buff/Riccardo, we seem to have identical interest in films and scores! Check out my profile and see who is my favorite composer is and the others too.
I well agree with all of your above Steiner comments. Max was the best as far as I'm concerned. He could score all types of films, he'll never be replaced.
Scannon was a great label. They also issued on CD the complete score to Victor Young's QUIET MAN. After Max Steiner is Victor Young!
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