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Honestly, George Lucas didn't have his original trilogy all mapped out either. MAYBE some broad strokes, but Return of the Jedi feels like a quick and dirty "out of the corner paint sloshing" as well. It's nearly as lazy in its storytelling as RoS. Just so happens a third if it is great where none of RoS is any good.
Well. Okay, the music is great.
The goodwill and popularity of the Star Wars franchise comes from two movies. And that's pretty much it.
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Film making was very different in the 70s. Pre-planned trilogies simply didn’t exist then. And I agree with you about ROTJ, although by comparison to the last trilogy it’s a work of art.
By the time Lucas got into the 2nd trilogy he DID have that mapped out, and some of it harked back to things he had said decades before.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m no lover of the prequels but at least they were broadly plotted out. The last three movies just looked like they were made up on the set during shooting.
I get that but once Empire was in production, and knowing it was ending on an unresolved note, you'd think he'd have it a little better planned. "Oh, the girl Luke's been crushing on and who finally kissed him? Let's make her his sister. Oh, the whole Vader killed your father bit? We can explain that as being true...from a certain point of view. Oh, Luke needs more training. Nope, Yoda's fine with what he knows." Etc.
The prequels were plotted but thinly as well as broadly, with one film's worth of story stretched over three. And as much as Lucas wanted to tie his films together, he had to go back to the originals and make edits to have them fit better. Which sucked.
I - enjoy - ROTJ for the most part and even Episode 3 is an okay piece of entertainment, I actually really like The Last Jedi because - FINALLY - someone was taking risks again. I didn't like all of the decisions but that film kept me on my toes throughout and I respected the desire to subvert expectations and make a FILM instead of just another piece of merch.
The problem with the SW movies is that they don't let the main villains end as villains. This is discounting Palpatine who was created because Vader needed to be redeemed in the final chapter of the original trilogy. Kylo Ren had to be redeemed so they brought back Palpatine - IN THE TEXT CRAWL. That movie is actually so lazy it's insulting.
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Posted: |
May 18, 2022 - 8:15 PM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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Film making was very different in the 70s. Pre-planned trilogies simply didn’t exist then. And I agree with you about ROTJ, although by comparison to the last trilogy it’s a work of art.
By the time Lucas got into the 2nd trilogy he DID have that mapped out, and some of it harked back to things he had said decades before.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m no lover of the prequels but at least they were broadly plotted out. The last three movies just looked like they were made up on the set during shooting.
I get that but once Empire was in production, and knowing it was ending on an unresolved note, you'd think he'd have it a little better planned. "Oh, the girl Luke's been crushing on and who finally kissed him? Let's make her his sister. Oh, the whole Vader killed your father bit? We can explain that as being true...from a certain point of view. Oh, Luke needs more training. Nope, Yoda's fine with what he knows." Etc.
The prequels were plotted but thinly as well as broadly, with one film's worth of story stretched over three. And as much as Lucas wanted to tie his films together, he had to go back to the originals and make edits to have them fit better. Which sucked.
I - enjoy - ROTJ for the most part and even Episode 3 is an okay piece of entertainment, I actually really like The Last Jedi because - FINALLY - someone was taking risks again. I didn't like all of the decisions but that film kept me on my toes throughout and I respected the desire to subvert expectations and make a FILM instead of just another piece of merch.
The problem with the SW movies is that they don't let the main villains end as villains. This is discounting Palpatine who was created because Vader needed to be redeemed in the final chapter of the original trilogy. Kylo Ren had to be redeemed so they brought back Palpatine - IN THE TEXT CRAWL. That movie is actually so lazy it's insulting.
When Luke said, "Then this droid belongs to you." in Star Wars Obi Wan said, "I don't remember ever owning a droid." Then the prequels happened! He did a lot of revisionists in the original 6 films.
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And The Last Jedi...that was a MUCH better film than anyone wants to publicly admit.
I honestly would drag Rian Johnson out into the street and beat him in the head with a tire iron in front of his mother and mine if given half a chance. There was nothing good about it or him.
Well...I gotta say...no movie has ever wanted me to physically beat someone. I guess I won't be saying how much I enjoyed Knives Out then...
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Normally I read your opinions of films and find your thoughts are very aligned to mine.
However, for The Last Jedi and Knives Out, it seems we are poles apart.
Well, in what way? I mean, lots of films by the same director are radically different in style, story, pacing, quality and whatever and I can enjoy them. Big difference between Superman and Lethal Weapon and I love them both.
And I generally enjoy a TON of movies most people loathe. That's just how I roll... 
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Posted: |
May 21, 2022 - 1:51 AM
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By: |
Rick15
(Member)
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Normally I read your opinions of films and find your thoughts are very aligned to mine.
However, for The Last Jedi and Knives Out, it seems we are poles apart.
Well, in what way? I mean, lots of films by the same director are radically different in style, story, pacing, quality and whatever and I can enjoy them.
I guess Rian’s style leaves me cold.
For me, The Last Jedi wasn’t just a poor Star Wars movie but also a poor movie. It was dull, pacing was terrible, plot points and characters didn’t make sense......did I mention that it was dull?
Knives out - was lifeless and dull. It’s been a long time since I saw it and I have no desire to sit through it again, but i remember seeing it in the cinema and being so bored that I wanted to fall asleep. Apparently there is a sequel being made, so some people liked it I guess.
I saw Knives Out because I hated The Last Jedi with a passion and wanted to see what Rian could do outside of the Star Wars universe. I saw more of the same.
This is all simply my opinion of course.
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Posted: |
May 21, 2022 - 3:45 AM
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By: |
Moonlit
(Member)
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Normally I read your opinions of films and find your thoughts are very aligned to mine.
However, for The Last Jedi and Knives Out, it seems we are poles apart.
Well, in what way? I mean, lots of films by the same director are radically different in style, story, pacing, quality and whatever and I can enjoy them.
I guess Rian’s style leaves me cold.
For me, The Last Jedi wasn’t just a poor Star Wars movie but also a poor movie. It was dull, pacing was terrible, plot points and characters didn’t make sense......did I mention that it was dull?
Knives out - was lifeless and dull. It’s been a long time since I saw it and I have no desire to sit through it again, but i remember seeing it in the cinema and being so bored that I wanted to fall asleep. Apparently there is a sequel being made, so some people liked it I guess.
I saw Knives Out because I hated The Last Jedi with a passion and wanted to see what Rian could do outside of the Star Wars universe. I saw more of the same.
This is all simply my opinion of course.
I'd say Knives Out was better than Last Jedi (though not great), and Brick towers over everything else he's done.
It continues to baffle me how the trilogy or Solo get all the talk but Rogue One was easily the best of the newish ones. Sure, it didn't have a star cast, but it made more sense within the SW universe without photocopying ANH like Force Awakens did. Which is rather sad when you consider FA might be the least worse in the trilogy. 40 years on since the original trilogy and the franchise still really hasn't accomplished anything.
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Posted: |
May 21, 2022 - 7:49 AM
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By: |
Solium
(Member)
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Normally I read your opinions of films and find your thoughts are very aligned to mine.
However, for The Last Jedi and Knives Out, it seems we are poles apart.
Well, in what way? I mean, lots of films by the same director are radically different in style, story, pacing, quality and whatever and I can enjoy them.
I guess Rian’s style leaves me cold.
For me, The Last Jedi wasn’t just a poor Star Wars movie but also a poor movie. It was dull, pacing was terrible, plot points and characters didn’t make sense......did I mention that it was dull?
Knives out - was lifeless and dull. It’s been a long time since I saw it and I have no desire to sit through it again, but i remember seeing it in the cinema and being so bored that I wanted to fall asleep. Apparently there is a sequel being made, so some people liked it I guess.
I saw Knives Out because I hated The Last Jedi with a passion and wanted to see what Rian could do outside of the Star Wars universe. I saw more of the same.
This is all simply my opinion of course.
I'd say Knives Out was better than Last Jedi (though not great), and Brick towers over everything else he's done.
It continues to baffle me how the trilogy or Solo get all the talk but Rogue One was easily the best of the newish ones. Sure, it didn't have a star cast, but it made more sense within the SW universe without photocopying ANH like Force Awakens did. Which is rather sad when you consider FA might be the least worse in the trilogy. 40 years on since the original trilogy and the franchise still really hasn't accomplished anything.
Agree on the Disney trilogy regurgitating what was done before but Rogue One was awful too. They built a whole film around a throw away line in Star Wars. The lead was as bland as Rey and the rest of the cast were a bunch of weirdo's with accents I could barely understand. The visuals were dark and muddy. I'll go to my dying grave saying Star Wars films should open with a text crawl. It's what makes it "Star Wars". (Though not one as badly written as Rise of Skywalker.)
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Posted: |
May 21, 2022 - 9:05 AM
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By: |
Moonlit
(Member)
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Normally I read your opinions of films and find your thoughts are very aligned to mine.
However, for The Last Jedi and Knives Out, it seems we are poles apart.
Well, in what way? I mean, lots of films by the same director are radically different in style, story, pacing, quality and whatever and I can enjoy them.
I guess Rian’s style leaves me cold.
For me, The Last Jedi wasn’t just a poor Star Wars movie but also a poor movie. It was dull, pacing was terrible, plot points and characters didn’t make sense......did I mention that it was dull?
Knives out - was lifeless and dull. It’s been a long time since I saw it and I have no desire to sit through it again, but i remember seeing it in the cinema and being so bored that I wanted to fall asleep. Apparently there is a sequel being made, so some people liked it I guess.
I saw Knives Out because I hated The Last Jedi with a passion and wanted to see what Rian could do outside of the Star Wars universe. I saw more of the same.
This is all simply my opinion of course.
I'd say Knives Out was better than Last Jedi (though not great), and Brick towers over everything else he's done.
It continues to baffle me how the trilogy or Solo get all the talk but Rogue One was easily the best of the newish ones. Sure, it didn't have a star cast, but it made more sense within the SW universe without photocopying ANH like Force Awakens did. Which is rather sad when you consider FA might be the least worse in the trilogy. 40 years on since the original trilogy and the franchise still really hasn't accomplished anything.
Agree on the Disney trilogy regurgitating what was done before but Rogue One was awful too. They built a whole film around a throw away line in Star Wars. The lead was as bland as Rey and the rest of the cast were a bunch of weirdo's with accents I could barely understand. The visuals were dark and muddy. I'll go to my dying grave saying Star Wars films should open with a text crawl. It's what makes it "Star Wars". (Though not one as badly written as Rise of Skywalker.)
C'mon, people. Does anyone really look at the prequels and go 'oh them were some fine films!' Silly imo. I thought Mr. Plinkett did a superb comedic job of debunking them.
Even if RO is as bad as the Disney trilogy, about the only difference I can see is maybe the acting was better in the trilogy minus Rey. I haven't seen ROS, so I can at least say I passed one one. [shrugs]
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I rewatched TLJ a week ago and I still love it. I didn't find it slow or dull, thought the story was daring and did something other than remake earlier Star Wars films. My only real issue was Finn was wasted in a storyline that didn't amount to much in the long run other than to fully get him on the side of the resistance. In TFA he was pretty much following Rey around and was with the resistance because he had nowhere else to go. By the end of the film, he'd taken ownership of his place.
Rose was being set up to be a major character and a potential romantic partner for Finn but Disney showed a true lack of balls and caved to the hate. Rose was shoved aside in TROS and they introduced someone else for Finn to play off of.
There was a grim feeling of impending doom throughout The Last Jedi and I appreciated that. I couldn't see the turns coming during the initial viewing, which was great. And I loved that Luke wasn't some perfect, dull monk training 50 Jedi with a pie in the sky point of view. He had a moment of human weakness and it cost him everything. He retreated after that. Yet, again, the character grew and Hamill gave a standout performance. Everyone had an arc. Everyone grew. There was excitement and laughs and twists and I just had a grand time with it.
Knives Out was a lot of fun, a jaunty little mystery with some hammy acting and a light touch. I probably won't see it again, but it was a fun day at the movies.
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