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Wait, I thought that wild piano overlay WAS on this version? Didn't someone confirm that earlier?
We expected it to be there, because it says "film version", but as far as I remember it was not confirmed.
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Seriously? You don't know the difference between film version and album version after all these years?
MV
Bumping this ill-advised post.
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Seriously? You don't know the difference between film version and album version after all these years?
MV
Bumping this ill-advised post.
Why?
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I would think it’s because MV took someone to task for confusing album versions and film versions when they have seemingly done it themselves on The Ambush for this new edition.
Don't ever argue with the big dog...
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I would think it’s because MV took someone to task for confusing album versions and film versions when they have seemingly done it themselves on The Ambush for this new edition.
Don't ever argue with the big dog...
Speaking of which - it’s about time for The Fugitive to be revisited. Would love to have Helicopter Chase without the segue at the end and the film version of the main titles with that crashing sound effects for the titles (if that’s even possible) I wonder if JNH added those or if it was a sound effects thing…
You know where I stand on this!
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Posted: |
Jul 27, 2022 - 9:20 AM
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By: |
c8
(Member)
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I have to start by heaping praise on the reason I triple dipped on this score: the mastering. I found the OST and the previous expansion to be rather flat and harsh (I've never been a fan of the mix on this score generally). But the LLL release seems to sparkle and glow in a way the other releases didn't. This is why I upgraded and, IMO, its money well spent. It'll never be a favorite Horner score but it fills a "comfort food" need.
That said, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, I have to take issue with Jeff's liner notes. He spents a considerable amount of time talking about Kazu Matsui and his shakuhatchi sounds, especially as they emulate pan pipes.
Horner tended to use the shakuhatchi as a long blown (across two or more bars) high pitched wind sound. Horner also loved toyos: long, stacked, difficult to play bass panpipes (see: https://youtu.be/dMACa_f_JC0?t=222). He often used toyos as the rhythm setting wind sound he loved so much.
Tony Hinnigan (and in earlier scores Mike Taylor) were the ones who provided the panpipe sounds on Horner's score. Both Hinnigan and Taylor are credited on Clear and Present Danger. Hinnigan wrote on his website (about CaPD):
Almost "Act 2" of the Patriot Games (complete with all-new panpipe olympics), this was the one where we found ourselves in an earthquake. On the night we arrived in LA, I went to bed early while Mike went out to the Comedy Store and afterwards for some refeshments. I woke at 4.30 am to find myself on the floor and the whole room swaying. Mike, walking back along Sunset Strip found himself swaying and bouncing off walls. I thought "blimey, it's an earthquake". Mike thought "blimey, I didn't think I'd had that many beers".
Tony explains "panpipe olympics" under his write up on Patriot Games:
This was mostly recorded at Conway Studios off Melrose (near the Paramount lot) in LA. It was the score where the concept of the "Panpipe Olympics" really took off. It's a tension-building device involving prolonged (I think the record was 11 and a half minutes!) riffing on Toyos (very big panpipes indeed). The biggest problem is that after a minute or two you start to pass out from a combination of lock-jaw and hyper-ventilation. Fortunately the recording engineer (scoring mixer to you American chaps and chapesses), the splendid Shawn Murphy, had mercy, stopped the tape and dropped us back in when we had regained consciousness. Top bloke.
So in other words,
1. Tony and Mike played on this score
2. Lots of the wind work is on rhythm pace setting
3. Tony specifically discusses "panpipe olympics" on CaPD
ergo: what Jeff is attributing to shakuhachi on CaPD actually ARE panpipes. I wouldn't be so passionate about this except:
1. The liner notes spend a considerable amount of time on attributing shakuhatchi as a "panpipe emulator." You simply can't play the shakuhachi like you would panpipes.
2. Kazu Matsui is given the credit for Tony Hinnigan and Mike Taylor's work (not that any of them are any less important in Horner's music!)
3. This brings the accuracy of the instrumental pallet ad discussed in the liner notes into question.
Again, I welcome being called out for being wrong but the evidence is strong I am not.
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I just noticed that La-La Land released the same takes of "Deleting the Evidence" and "Truth Needs a Soldier / End Title" as Intrada. The film takes are still only on the OST. How funny is that?
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I just noticed that La-La Land released the same takes of "Deleting the Evidence" and "Truth Needs a Soldier / End Title" as Intrada. The film takes are still only on the OST. How funny is that?
Seriously? WTF They should maybe add a disclaimer to the website that these are in fact not the film versions.
Deleting The Evidence (Film Version) (Alternate Take) (Unused) (Alternate Mix)
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Could you point out any differences between them? I'm not hearing anything super different between the albums...
There's nothing super different about them. It's essentially the same music with minor performance differences.
In "Deleting the Evidence" one telltale sign is the flute performance that starts at 3:08, und in "Truth Needs a Soldier / End Title" some differences are noticeable in the bells which start at 3:11. There are others, but those are the ones I noticed most.
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Actually, the film sometimes uses a combination of different takes for each track. "Main Title / A Clear and Present Danger" for example uses excerpts of LLL's "alternate opening", the "film version" and the album version in the first 30 seconds alone. It starts out with a faded-in excerpt from the alternate opening, switches to LLL's "film version", albeit shortened, and then segues into the album version with the cymbal crash. One can even hear the last trumpet note of the album version, even though musically it comes out of nowhere at this point. Frankly, I never noticed this before. Since La-La Land decided to release complete takes, their "film version" does indeed come closest to the version heard in the film. Understandably they didn't copy the film edit.
The same goes for "Woodroom / Finale", which uses elements from both takes in the film. Mostly, the actual film version is LLL's "alternate", it only switches to the other version after the grand finale. Intrada seems to have approximated that edit in their original expanded edition, but their switch occurs just a little too early to match the film version completely. Fascinating.
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Actually, the film sometimes uses a combination of different takes for each track. "Main Title / A Clear and Present Danger" for example uses excerpts of LLL's "alternate opening", the "film version" and the album version in the first 30 seconds alone. It starts out with a faded-in excerpt from the alternate opening, switches to LLL's "film version", albeit shortened, and then segues into the album version with the cymbal crash. One can even hear the last trumpet note of the album version, even though musically it comes out of nowhere at this point. Frankly, I never noticed this before. Since La-La Land decided to release complete takes, their "film version" does indeed come closest to the version heard in the film. Understandably they didn't copy the film edit.
The same goes for "Woodroom / Finale", which uses elements from both takes in the film. Mostly, the actual film version is LLL's "alternate", it only switches to the other version after the grand finale. Intrada seems to have approximated that edit in their original expanded edition, but their switch occurs just a little too early to match the film version completely. Fascinating.
Thanks for this breakdown. This is why I was originally wondering about the Main Titles and describing an "actual" film version as the Intrada release already had two versions, one of which was labeled "album", and the other which was supposed to be the film version. Intrada's liner notes also described how they didn't recreate all the score "tracking" that occurred in the film, which I was aware the film did a heavy amount of.
It IS fascinating, and not for purposes of being nitpicky but for understanding how and why music editors and composers will choose the takes that they do and when and from what they track and shift music around. There is a lot to learn there for both editors AND composers, which I find fascinating and helpful to study.
X-MEN was one of the most unique examples in recent times, and that was helpful to see on that CD release how the music was put together, with some cues completely fabricated from scratch by editing completely different cues together.
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Another observation that hasn't been made yet in this thread is that the film version of "The Laser-Guided Missile" drops all of the synths towards the end and goes with just the panpipes for about a minute (by the way, good point by c8 on the issue of panpipes vs. shakuhachi). The synths are only faded back in for a bit towards the very end.
The missing overlay from "The Ambush" is only about 36 seconds long and consists of nothing but an added percussion pattern.
To the best of my knowledge, here's a short rundown of recordings that are exclusive to each release (not counting film edits):
OST:
- Deleting the Evidence (film take)
- Truth Needs a Soldier / End Title (film take)
Intrada:
- Main Title / A Clear and Present Danger (disc 1) (featuring an alternate intro)
- Woodroom / Finale (edit of the two La-La Land versions)
La-La Land:
- Main Title / A Clear and Present Danger (film version)
- Main Title / A Clear and Present Danger (alternate opening excerpt)
- The Ambush (film version)
- Woodroom / Finale
- Woodroom / Finale (alternate)
film:
- The Ambush (film version with overlay)
- The Laser-Guided Missile (film mix)
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