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 Posted:   Sep 5, 2010 - 11:55 PM   
 By:   Jameson281   (Member)

. . . I hope to be able to share the full story within the next few weeks.


Oh, boy! Does this mean you have "insider info" on an important imminent CD release?!


There is a CD of this score coming, but that's a coincidence that has nothing to do with me discovering the Overture.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 5:26 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)

Those of us who grew up in the heyday of roadshow attractions tend to forget that many people today have no direct experience of what exactly was meant by a film “Overture”, “Intermission/Entr’acte” or “Exit Music”. That’s sad, because there’s little doubt that cinema presentation has deteriorated alarmingly.

Presentationally, one of the worst things about modern cinemas is that they no longer have proscenium curtains – just a white blank screen; the view of which would have been anathema to cinema managers of the past. Also the picture quality of films has regressed following the demise of 70mm, which most roadshows were presented in. Although 35mm film stock has improved, it doesn’t compare to the sharp, pristine grain-free appearance of 70mm.

Incidentally, that Wikipedia link posted above listing Overtures is far from complete. Good previous thread on the subject of roadshows: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=43842&forumID=7&archive=0

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 6:21 AM   
 By:   eriknelson   (Member)

In my opinion, one of the most elegant overtures was written for RAINTREE COUNTY. By the way, there's an interesting discussion about roadshow presentations at the Widescreen Museum website.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/roadshow_presentation.htm

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 6:23 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

I never knew there were so many films with Overtures. My first experience was Star Trek The Motion Picture and Black Hole. I always thought it was really cool, it got me in the mood for what I was about to watch. Yet I always loved film music anyway. Some seemed confused when music began to play, but the screen was black. They thought something was wrong with the film.

Ive seen most of the other films with Overtures, but my experience were more than likely edited versions shown on television in the 60's and 70's. I believe a lot of Overtures were omitted from VHS releases of many films as well.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 6:47 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)

I never knew there were so many films with Overtures. My first experience was Star Trek The Motion Picture and Black Hole. I always thought it was really cool, it got me in the mood for what I was about to watch. Yet I always loved film music anyway. Some seemed confused when music began to play, but the screen was black. They thought something was wrong with the film.


Screens were not black during the Overture. The Overture began with the curtains still drawn and the auditorium lights on, with people still taking their seats. It was only the final 30 seconds or so that the lights began to dim and then the curtains opened as the Overture music came to an end. Many people were barely aware of the Overture music and would not have appreciated that it was composed especially for the film.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 7:26 AM   
 By:   ANHaupt1337   (Member)

It's nice that TCM and many (yes?) DVD issues do include an epic movie's overture--often with a sign on the screen that says "Overture" so we don't think our TV has malfunctioned.

When we replace our 37-inch LCD flatscreens with 37-foot flatscreens, some semblance of the majestic roadshow experience will return.

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 9:14 AM   
 By:   Senojanaidni   (Member)



Screens were not black during the Overture. The Overture began with the curtains still drawn and the auditorium lights on, with people still taking their seats. It was only the final 30 seconds or so that the lights began to dim and then the curtains opened as the Overture music came to an end. Many people were barely aware of the Overture music and would not have appreciated that it was composed especially for the film.[/endquote

Greystoke Overture was exactly like that.

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 9:41 AM   
 By:   mxmx   (Member)

To clarify a few points for those in the process of discovering this aspect of film/scoring history:

Whenever you see a TV/home video presentation with the word "Overture" (or "Entr'Acte" or "Exit Music") on screen, this has been created specifically for video... generally for the aforementioned reason of avoiding potential confusion by viewers who might think there is a malfunction. Those words don't appear on the original films.

During the era when Overtures were common, the film was generally black and played over a closed curtain (the lamp on the projector could also be off while this was going on). Many times the Overtures were EQ'd with extra high end to compensate for the dampening of the sound by the curtain. (Sometimes this needs to be adjusted to a more normal EQ in video mastering.)

Director Robert Wise did not like how overtures sounded through closed curtains and so he had the graphic designed for West Side Story and the live performance image for Star!. Similarly, Alfred Newman is seen conducting the orchestra on film for the overture to How to Marry a Millionaire. I'm sure there are other instances where there is an actual image on screen during the overture.

Also... do not be fooled by the use of the word "Overture" as a track title on a soundtrack album. This does not always mean it is an actual overture heard in the film presentation. Sometimes they give that name to the Main or End Title or an album arrangement (Capricorn One, Back to the Future).

Conversely, there are also Overtures on a few films that were not separate compositions but other sections of the score cobbled together editorially (Gone With the Wind, reissue prints of The King and I... and this latter had an "Overture" recorded for the soundtrack album that was not otherwise used). Finally, there are also some films where the Overture and Entr'Acte are identical (2001, Ben-Hur, Lawrence of Arabia.)

Mike

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 9:52 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Finally, there are also some films where the Overture and Entr'Acte are identical (2001, Ben-Hur, Lawrence of Arabia.)

Mike



Actually, the Overture for 'Ben-Hur' is not at all identical to the Entr'Acte. If you listen to the Rhino you'll see that the Entr'Acte has a totally different ending, the 'Anno Domini' motif in tutti, to replace Miriam's theme and the 'Friendship' motif, and the quieter 'Anno Domini'. This may well be cut'n'paste, but the first 'identical' half is not the same performance as the Overture either, since it's faster and louder.

Plus there was a second rejected Entr'Acte for BH which never made any 'official' release including Rhino, and which contains thematically unique material. Some of this material is reperformed in the Sony 'Prologue' from their old 2CD.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 9:56 AM   
 By:   Koray Savas   (Member)

Soderberg's Che

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:03 AM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)

Here is a substantial list courtesy of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_overtures



I'd forgotten a few of those. But what sort of Overture did 'Battle of the Bulge' have? I have both releases on CD, OST and Bamert, and they both begin with the title.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:11 AM   
 By:   ms1999   (Member)

What movies opened with a concert piece or suite before the main titles?

Here's the ones I can remember:

Ben Hur (?)
Westside Story
Black Hole
Star Trek The Motion Picture

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:13 AM   
 By:   ms1999   (Member)

Samson & Delilah on Laser Disc. I have it

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:14 AM   
 By:   Morricone   (Member)

Sodom and Gomorrah
The Ten Commandments
Spartacus
Cleopatra
Julius Caesar
Anthony and Cleopatra
King of Kings
Ben-Hur
Quo Vadis?
Fall of the Roman Empire
El Cid
Man of La Mancha
Mutiny on the Bounty
The Alamo
How the West was Won
Gone With the Wind
Khartoum
Fifty-Five Days at Peking
Doctor Zhivago
Lawrence of Arabia
Ryan's Daughter
Oh, What a Lovely War

Many scores have concert overtures arranged long after the film's releases, for album treatments. Some, like 'Spartacus' or 'Spellbound' have cut'n'paste affairs.


IT'S A MAD MAD MAD MAD WORLD
IS PARIS BURNING?
THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD
BATTLE OF THE BULGE
THE HALLELUJAH TRAIL
THE BLUE MAX
THOSE MAGNIFICENT MEN IN THEIR FLYING MACHINES
THE GREAT RACE
THE SAND PEBBLES
HAWAII
LOVES OF ISADORA
FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD
THE BIBLE
BECKET
THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY
SHOES OF THE FISHERMAN

then the musicals...

OLIVER!
FUNNY GIRL
SWEET CHARITY
STAR!
HELLO DOLLY!
THE SOUND OF MUSIC
WEST SIDE STORY
FINIAN'S RAINBOW
DOCTOR DOOLITTLE
CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANG
HALF A SIXPENCE
FIDDLER ON THE ROOF
GOODBYE MR. CHIPS
THE HAPPIEST MILLIONAIRE
CAMELOT
MY FAIR LADY
GIGI

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:15 AM   
 By:   ms1999   (Member)

Sodom and Gomorrah
The Ten Commandments
Spartacus
Cleopatra
Julius Caesar
Anthony and Cleopatra
King of Kings
Ben-Hur
Quo Vadis?
Fall of the Roman Empire
El Cid
Man of La Mancha
Mutiny on the Bounty
The Alamo
How the West was Won
Gone With the Wind
Khartoum
Fifty-Five Days at Peking
Doctor Zhivago
Lawrence of Arabia
Ryan's Daughter
Oh, What a Lovely War

Many scores have concert overtures arranged long after the film's releases, for album treatments. Some, like 'Spartacus' or 'Spellbound' have cut'n'paste affairs.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:17 AM   
 By:   ms1999   (Member)

King Kong 1933 Samson & Delilah on Laser Disc, I have it

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:19 AM   
 By:   Richard-W   (Member)

I'm trying to think of the last film with an an overature that I saw in a theater ... the pre-title overture to STAR TREK THE MOTION PICTURE was a pleasant surprise and a really fine piece which hinted, before the curtain rose, that this film would take the high road. Which it did. The overture signaled a soulful bounding leap in the Star Trek mythos. I loved it.

Goldsmith could do no wrong.


Richard

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 10:35 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)


Screens were not black during the Overture. The Overture began with the curtains still drawn and the auditorium lights on, with people still taking their seats. It was only the final 30 seconds or so that the lights began to dim and then the curtains opened as the Overture music came to an end. Many people were barely aware of the Overture music and would not have appreciated that it was composed especially for the film.


Hmmm, I'm pretty sure it was for Star Trek TMP. By that time opening and closing curtains were not as common. I distinctively remember hearing rumblings in the seats around me wondering "Where's the picture?" while Ilia's theme was being played on the speakers. I'm pretty sure the same happened with The Black Hole.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 11:48 AM   
 By:   Doug Raynes   (Member)

I'd forgotten a few of those. But what sort of Overture did 'Battle of the Bulge' have? I have both releases on CD, OST and Bamert, and they both begin with the title.

The Overture is really good. It relies far less on the main thematic elements from the film than does the Main Title or the Entr’acte or the Exit Music (which is almost a copy of the Main Title). The Overture begins as a string ostinato, imparting an air of anticipation and suspense, which gradually increases in intensity as the complete orchestra takes up the original string figure. The music becomes agitated as the percussion and brass become prominent and take up some of the battle music for the bulk of the 2.30 minutes. It ends on a partially unresolved crescendo. The complete roadshow version is available on the latest DVD and Blu-ray disc. The full length score would be a great release for FSM but the film was a co-production between Warner Bros and Cinerama Inc so I suppose that makes music clearance difficult.

 
 Posted:   Sep 6, 2010 - 12:02 PM   
 By:   WILLIAMDMCCRUM   (Member)


The Overture is really good. It relies far less on the main thematic elements from the film than does the Main Title or the Entr’acte or the Exit Music (which is almost a copy of the Main Title). The Overture begins as a string ostinato, imparting an air of anticipation and suspense, which gradually increases in intensity as the complete orchestra takes up the original string figure. The music becomes agitated as the percussion and brass become prominent and take up some of the battle music for the bulk of the 2.30 minutes. It ends on a partially unresolved crescendo. The complete roadshow version is available on the latest DVD and Blu-ray disc. The full length score would be a great release for FSM but the film was a co-production between Warner Bros and Cinerama Inc so I suppose that makes music clearance difficult.


Sounds great. I love Frankel's gift for creating a sort of brooding, underground, seething discontent as if something's about to 'break through' either psychologically ('Night of the Iguana') or physically ('Battle of the Bulge'): there's a struggle in his music, and it is often unresolved.

I wonder why the reconstructors left it out. I suppose it's a long CD as it is.

 
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