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Posted: |
Jun 18, 2019 - 5:26 PM
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By: |
bcommunal
(Member)
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From Nono : "Unfortunately, all the "magic" as you say is gone with the new mixing and mastering which drastically reduce the dynamics : the cue starts much louder , the climax is no more a climax, the americana theme has not the same impact anymore, and is also louder etc"
Again, I am agreed and I think John Williams and Eric Tomlinson were both very inspired by the movie and story to create this original"magic"mix. To me, the new mix tells another story, like a new recording of the score, the spirit of the original and historic recording is not respected... Relatively speaking, there is the same kind of problem on the Kritzerland album of Poltergeist 2, all the depth and magic of the original digital mix are gone. I think the late 3 cd's Intrada edition is far better and respects the great work of Jerry Goldsmith and Bruce Botnick on this soundtrack...
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A remix-remaster of this forty year old material is bound to be problematic.
Due, first, to the dynamic range limitations of the then-existing recording, mixing and playback technologies.
Second, since the mixing choices that would have been made on a contemporary mix by John Williams and Eric Tomlinson (if they could stomach the mountain of work involved) can only be done on largely a best-guess basis by Messrs. Matessino, Gerhard, Verboys, etc.
The sort of “way it used to sound + modern dynamic range preferences” mix that some posters seem to be clamoring for probably awaits a new suite of software refinements that don’t exist yet.
Maybe the visual effects programmers of our time can get to work on that as soon as Hollywood gets over its very understandable, very profitable obsession with making greenscreen cinema look as seamless as possible.
But the Superman score, “seamless”? Never going to be.
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I have to laugh when folks here say things like " it's a 40 year old recording. There is only so much can be done".
40 years is NOT ancient.history.. In recording terms.it is.very.much MODERN technology.
SGT. PEPPER is FIFTY years old. Have you listened to the recent remaster.
The.big changes in recording tech. is the ability to faithfully replicate the original recordings.CDs make it possible - for the first time- to replicate the master tapes in.a home.listening.format.
So wake up!
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Try listening to John Barry records.from.the 60s. YOLT and OHMSS particularly sound as good as anything made today.
And they were recorded on 4 track analog tape!
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Posted: |
Jun 18, 2019 - 11:07 PM
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By: |
Musicmix
(Member)
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I am glad that they removed some more extreme dynamic range. It works when you are watching a movie in the theater, but otherwise it doesn't work with a modern recording. You are free to listen to the original version if you prefer that wide dynamic range, but for everyone else this new version is available to breathe new life into the music.
I think this was alluded to in the Blue Box booklet where it mentions that that release was “specially tailored for CD sonics” as opposed to the final film mix. Could be the same thing here. The wider dynamic range worked better in the remastered 2000 film mix but was too much for the CD release. At least it isn’t brick walled, which is something that Mike is known for avoiding.
Personally, I think the dramatic intensity of the performances overshadows any perceived literal reduction in dynamic range. You have to try looking at it a different way to redeem it. The exemplary sound quality overall more than makes up for this as well after all these years. It’s fascinating to hear the dry recording and the natural reverb of the soundstage for the first time without additional reverb, compression, and Dolby noise reduction added, in addition to the flattened midrange applied to the Blue Box. I also remember wincing every time I heard distortion in the timpani drums during portions of the Main and End Titles. All gone at last.
The only minor quibble I had is that one bonus cue sounded like it wasn’t remixed from 24-track: the shorter alternate version of “Can You Read My Mind,” the one intended for a vocalist. That mix sounded exactly like it did on the Blue Box, while the longer version, the one not intended for a vocalist, was definitely remixed. A bit disappointing.
Now that I have both La La Land releases of “Superman” and “Superman II/III,” the latter of which includes the bonus cues of the former film, I will definitely retire the Blue Box. Luckily I have the initial defective copy of the booklet, which I will scan into a PDF file.
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Posted: |
Jun 19, 2019 - 4:11 AM
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By: |
bcommunal
(Member)
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I'm sure you must be right because you have links to articles and such - plus you hear the difference with your own ears. Can't argue with that. But I don't understand how the La-La Land release can have such poor dynamic range that it is both too loud and not intense enough to the point where it is a flatline of sound that no ear can interpret as music!!
It's the subtle variations of dynamic that make the music "sings".
A "hot" mixing (and mastering) where every instrument is loud also give a false perspective of the soundstage.
That's right, listen for exemple the new Monsignor album from Intrada mastered by Mike Matessino. Here, no new remix, only the original album master was available, with the beautiful recording and mix by Eric Tomlinson. It's a fine new edition with no big volume increase or "hot" mixing, I think, and the perspective of the soundstage is respected and nice. I thank greatly Mister Matessino for this work and his passion for our beloved scores, but produce and master a CD with talent is one thing, record and mix a full orchestra in a large studio with the composer is another thing. It's not the same job and Eric Tomlinson was a master for movie music sessions. As for most of the classical editions or anthologies, I think the film music labels should respect the original creative decisions of the artists, they are serving the creators... I had the chance to meet and talk with some great composers (Jarre, Goldsmith, Kamen, Shore...) They were all very involved with the recording and mixing of their scores. For exemple, I remember Jerry Goldsmith mixing himself some cues with Bruce Botnick at Abbey Road, and the mood of Maurice Jarre who hated the mix and soundstage of the Tony Bremner rerecording of Lawrence of Arabia...
My shot of a session :
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Obviously Williams has changed his mind, as he not only approved of this release but he either said in an interview, or Mike told us here (or at JWFan.com) that he doesn't want anybody else but Mike working on his scores. So, he approved the mix and is so happy with it he wants more of it...
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Posted: |
Jun 19, 2019 - 11:01 AM
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By: |
danbeck
(Member)
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I think it is important to point out that the new edition is not overly compressed as it may appear from some posts.
In fact it is still in the “green” area at Dynamic Range Database, with the score on discs 1 and 2 having an average dynamic range of 12 with a maximum of 17. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=Superman+
To my ears it is the best this soundtrack has ever sounded, and I had all previous versions (original LP, original CD, Japanese with the additional 2 tracks omitted from the original CD, Rhino, Blue Box).
Mixing of multitracks can be very tricky, it is almost impossible to obtain the same balance of the initial mixing (I was also disappointed with Conan The Barbarian and a few others), but in this case I think the new mix is very good, allowing new details to be perceived but not deviating from the original sound.
Can’t wait for a Mike Matessino edition of the Indiana Jones series or Star Wars... his work has been outstanding.
For years I thought I’d never listen to a good sounding Jaws (for me the release of the decade) and he made it happen.
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