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 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 1:00 PM   
 By:   Rnelson   (Member)

I do agree that Goldsmith's approach seems more intellectualized than Williams, but that is a completely superficial impression. I have no doubt that Williams' reasons and thinks every bit as much a Goldsmith must have in producing his work. But I don't buy for a second that it was cold or emotionless. Even at it's angriest and most experimental there is something deeply evocative and emotional about Goldsmith's music.

I sometimes wonder if some film music listeners think the only things that qualify as emotion in the music is a reaction of sadness or joy. The range of human emotion is much, much broader than that. Fear, anger, terror, hatred and wonder are just as legitimate emotional responses.

I just think that Goldsmith had to believe that it was credible and warranted that such warm emotions be reflected in his music. In the great pantheon of Goldsmith's music there is more than enough sincere warmth and lyricism to bring one to tears but just as much to make one feel all the other emotions we are capable of as well.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 1:00 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

Thank you, Arch Stanton, for a particularly jejune assessment of my opinion, which is equally valid to yours.

There's nothing sad about my assessment of Goldsmith's writing. It's a genuine, NON-BLINKERED, reaction to it in comparison to the music of other composers.

But then you'd probably know that if you had an objective ear.

As for the screenplay to TWATL...the only romance is your wishful thinking and Goldsmith's musical theme "I Remember", which was apparently named, appropriately, after the footage that was left on the cutting room floor.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 1:33 PM   
 By:   Arch Stanton   (Member)

There's nothing sad about my assessment of Goldsmith's writing. It's a genuine, NON-BLINKERED, reaction to it in comparison to the music of other composers.

But then you'd probably know that if you had an objective ear.


Whatever....

But I think my objective ear is much better than your objective ear.


As for the screenplay to TWATL...the only romance is your wishful thinking and Goldsmith's musical theme "I Remember", which was apparently named, appropriately, after the footage that was left on the cutting room floor.

It's really hard to respond to such nonsense, but I'll try to meet the challenge.

If you want proof of the romance, here's some: how glad she was to have him rescue her from the blue people (she hugs him with a most sincere happiness, and much more than she should); she lets him know she was 'bluffing' because she has formed some kind of deep feeling for him; and, most importantly, she arranges his rescue (actually rescuing him herself) and then gives him his precious rifle, and he says, "Mrs. Pedecaris, I'll see you again when we're both like golden clouds on the wind"; and then she cries!

I really think that's enough to prove you quite irrovacably incorrect.

Frankly, you don't seem to know much about movies at all.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:00 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

There's nothing sad about my assessment of Goldsmith's writing. It's a genuine, NON-BLINKERED, reaction to it in comparison to the music of other composers.

But then you'd probably know that if you had an objective ear.


Whatever....

But I think my objective ear is much better than your objective ear.


As for the screenplay to TWATL...the only romance is your wishful thinking and Goldsmith's musical theme "I Remember", which was apparently named, appropriately, after the footage that was left on the cutting room floor.

It's really hard to respond to such nonsense, but I'll try to meet the challenge.

If you want proof of the romance, here's some: how glad she was to have him rescue her from the blue people (she hugs him with a most sincere happiness, and much more than she should); she lets him know she was 'bluffing' because she has formed some kind of deep feeling for him; and, most importantly, she arranges his rescue (actually rescuing him herself) and then gives him his precious rifle, and he says, "Mrs. Pedecaris, I'll see you again when we're both like golden clouds on the wind"; and then she cries!

I really think that's enough to prove you quite irrovacably incorrect.

Frankly, you don't seem to know much about movies at all.


Frankly, you don't seem to know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Those scenes, middlingly developed and rather ineffective, at best (EXCEPT FOR the music), do not speak of romance of any kind. Eden Pedicaris might just as well have been a man for all the emotion in them.

This is not a great film nor is it great filmmaking, and the general critical consensus about the film was laid at the feet of the screenplay, and then directed toward a lack of chemistry between Bergen and Connery.

But then, YOU wouldn't know anything about that, would you? It's a perfect film in your eyes. But then, you are the last word in what is and isn't CORRECT, right?

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:03 PM   
 By:   Arch Stanton   (Member)

Frankly, you don't seem to know your ass from a hole in the ground.

I love it when people admit defeat with such a statement.

Nice sparring with you... and better luck next time.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:03 PM   
 By:   Doctor Shatterhand   (Member)

His Dracula score. The scene where the Count is making love to Lucy with the Maurice Binder effects. Very sexy.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:08 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

Frankly, you don't seem to know your ass from a hole in the ground.

I love it when people admit defeat with such a statement.

Nice sparring with you... and better luck next time.


Sorry, Arch. Your fanboy lack of objectivity just beats you down.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:21 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

I think this thread is terrific because it points out, in no uncertain terms, that Williams rarely (if ever) captured sensuality or sexuality.

Of all the examples given, I think the closest he ever came was with PENELOPE. I think the cue is called 'Poolside.'


And I think this thread was terrific because it elicited your bias:

Goldsmith's "Basic Instinct" is a very sensual (sexual, if you prefer) score -- in fact, it's one of the great scores of its decade, BUT...it's sensual from a distance..it has a chill to it that not only embraces but comes with a warning of danger.

It's perfect for the film. IMO, Goldsmith never scored anything else like it -- or in that mode -- and it's simply dumb to suggest Williams is somehow deficient because none of the films he has scored required such sensuality.

You know, Arch, there is not now, never has been and never will be a Goldsmith vs. Williams feud or competition.

I don't think either of these composers is perfect or beyond criticism. But if one must criticise, one ought to have some ability to appreciate both without making such silly statements as the one you made above.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:23 PM   
 By:   Arch Stanton   (Member)

Sorry, Arch. Your assessment of the film and the points I've made about Goldsmith's music are about as lowbrow fanboyish as they come. I do wish you had more objectivity -- you reacted to what I wrote in the same way you reacted to TWATL...discovering things that just are not there.

Man, you must think you're playing with a novice. Need you embarass yourself any further?

The refusal to respond with any meaningful evidence and then resort to juvenility is the final defense of those who are completely out of ideas.

So you like Williams better than you do Goldsmith, and me vice versa. I've responded with factual examples, and you have not. How does that add up to you?

As I said, better luck next time.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:25 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)


Man, you must think you're playing with a novice. Need you embarass yourself any further?

The refusal to respond with any meaningful evidence and then resort to juvenility is the final defense of those who are completely out of ideas.

So you like Williams better than you do Goldsmith, and me vice versa. I've responded with factual examples, and you have not. How does that add up to you?

As I said, better luck next time.


And this is where you've totally failed. I have no such preference for Williams over Goldsmith.

That's your blinkered bias. I'm not in the least embarrassed, except for you, of course. As for offering any proof...every "proof" you offered up simply smacks of invention. There is a bond, but there is NO ROMANCE. One can feel affection and tear up, but that's not LOVE. Goldsmith wrote a love theme for a friendship. Plain and simple.

I think you also must believe you're talking to a novice. I certainly approached the subject without personal rancor or personally dismissive attitudes such as the ones with which you peppered your first post. I followed YOUR lead, dude.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:35 PM   
 By:   Arch Stanton   (Member)

You know, Arch, there is not now, never has been and never will be a Goldsmith vs. Williams feud or competition.

I don't think either of these composers is perfect or beyond criticism. But if one must criticise, one ought to have some ability to appreciate both without making such silly statements as the one you made above.


Hey, I'm not going to call you a fanboy or such a lowbrow tactic as that, but I don't think Williams ever really captured either sexuality or sensuality very well.

And CHINATOWN can certainly be added to Goldsmith's list of great sexual/sensual music. I also think the 'bar room' music from OUTLAND would blow most others out of the water (is that pure sex or what?).

Believe me, I'm not into these Goldsmith/Williams feuds at all, and I rarely respond to them. But you made some ignorant statements I just had to correct. That's all.

And I do appreciate Williams, so you really don't know what you're talking about... again.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:38 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

You know, Arch, there is not now, never has been and never will be a Goldsmith vs. Williams feud or competition.

I don't think either of these composers is perfect or beyond criticism. But if one must criticise, one ought to have some ability to appreciate both without making such silly statements as the one you made above.


Hey, I'm not going to call you a fanboy or such a lowbrow tactic as that, but I don't think Williams ever really captured either sexuality or sensuality very well.

And CHINATOWN can certainly be added to Goldsmith's list of great sexual/sensual music. I also think the 'bar room' music from OUTLAND would blow most others out of the water (is that pure sex or what?).

Believe me, I'm not into these Goldsmith/Williams feuds at all, and I rarely respond to them. But you made some ignorant statements I just had to correct. That's all.

And I do appreciate Williams, so you really don't know what you're talking about... again.


If that is true then you shouldn't go around saying such things about other people when there's absolutely no evidence of it.

If you didn't want "lowbrow" antics, your first post would not have said such things as:

"Your statement means absolutely nothing."

Or:

"Either you have not seen the movie or you just didn't understand what you were seeing."

And then, when I replied with respect and NO personal digs at you, you wrote:

"And, as I pretty much indicated, you are quite incorrect. I find this particularly amusing since your profile shows you to be a Golden Age guy, where almost every emotion (like most John Williams' later scores) is overblown to a sappy degree."

Talk about dragging an objective discussion down by becoming personally dismissive! In my considerable internet experience, that is the tactic I most often associate with someone who has no faith in his ability to argue his point-of-view with strong conviction.

Thus, please spare me the notion that your horse is higher than mine. wink

By the way: Did you know that the incident of the abduction of Eden Perdicaris and children was not factual? No. It was Ion Perdicaris and his stepson who were actually taken...and the Raisuli and Ion became friends. Milius attempted to turn that into a romance when he changed the gender of the abducted.

IMO, it didn't work out well that way. It still smacks more of a male bonding scenario than a romance.

All that said, I admire your passion.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:50 PM   
 By:   Arch Stanton   (Member)

By the way: Did you know that the incident of the abduction of Eden Perdicaris and children was not factual? No. It was Ion Perdicaris and his stepson who were actually taken...and the Raisuli and Ion became friends. Milius attempted to turn that into a romance when he changed the gender of the abducted.

IMO, it didn't work out well that way. It still smacks of a male bonding than a romance.


Yes, I knew the basis of the story.

Like all movies supposedly based on true stories, it's just another glamorous falsification of the truth.

The farther away we get from the truth in movies, the better I like it. Nothing is more insulting than someone trying to promote any dramatization of a true story as the truth. In fact, the closer they are to the truth, the less I like it. There's something more inherently wrong with the intent.

So kudos to Milius for a wise decision, a terrific script, and a great movie.

 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:54 PM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

So kudos to Milius for a wise decision, a terrific script, and a great movie.

I'm glad you adore it.

I like it. I just wish it had been more consistent in its casting/quality of writing (the Teddy Roosevelt sequences...and the 'great white fleet/walk softly and carry a big stick' realizations...were extraordinary).

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 2:57 PM   
 By:   NowhereMan   (Member)

I always found Williams' theme from the Eiger Sanction (as heard in track 2) to be pretty sexy.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 24, 2008 - 4:24 PM   
 By:   RozsaRulz   (Member)

Can't quibble about JG's Basic Instinct score having a genuine sexuality to it. But I wonder if the on-screen shenanigans of Sharon Stone had much to do with that.

If you want a score with highly charged sexuality, that grabs you even if you haven't seen the movie, then try on Pino Donaggio's DRESSED TO KILL. If the subtle, orgasmic female voice under the title theme doesn't warm your cockles, then you are probably dead.

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 26, 2008 - 8:47 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

*sigh*

Another thread degenerating into the old Williams vs. Goldsmith debate? I don't get it. Here was a topic on Williams music being "sexy", with lots of potential interest. What he bloody hell does JERRY GOLDSMITH have to do with that?!?

Sometimes, I'm convinced that if you started a topic on "Bulgarian opposums' reaction to green vegetables" on this board, that would still somehow turn into a Goldsmith thread. roll eyes

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 26, 2008 - 9:06 AM   
 By:   Morricone   (Member)

I pretty much get fed up with this stuff. Okay, name a scene in any William's film that has the sexuality which would warrant BASIC INSTINCT type of music (you can't use the films I suggested because for some reason we have to ignore those). These people get assignments and write for those specific films. I really sometimes think we should call ourselves Film Score Haters because there is much more articulation about what we hate than what we love. People can't seem to put into words the quality of a composer so they do it by trashing another composer. I have seen this with every composer, including Goldsmith!

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 26, 2008 - 9:34 AM   
 By:   Alex Klein   (Member)

It's quite silly to actually say that a composer of Williams' stature couldn't do sexy music. The man wasn't offered Basic Instinct, and i'm sure he would have done a marvelous job. To put it in Ron Goodwin's words: "If you can only write one type of music, then you shouldn't be in the business anyway".
There's a BIG difference between "Williams never wrote much sexy music" and "Williams couldn't write sexy music".

Alex

 
 
 Posted:   Apr 26, 2008 - 2:44 PM   
 By:   MoxFulder   (Member)

With all of this BASIC INSTINCT talk going around, am I the only one who doesn't find this film all that sexy at all? Kinky, maybe, but not "sexy". The completely chaste dancing-in-the-barn scene in WITNESS is sexier, to me, than anything in BI.

 
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