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Goldsmith‘s score is pure fantasy magic.
Those who cannot hear that are just tied to their nostalgia after seeing the movie with the TD score.
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Posted: |
May 19, 2021 - 2:13 PM
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By: |
William R.
(Member)
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Although the film flopped hard, it did develop a following of youngsters on video, like several other of the 80s fantasy epics. To this small but eager following, the Tangerine Dream score was all they knew, and many of them grew to love it. Most of them didn't hear Goldsmith's score until the director's cut was released many years later; to them, Tangerine Dream's score is the real deal, and Goldsmith's is inferior. It's runs almost exactly opposite to the opinion of the soundtrack collector community. I don't agree with them, but it's interesting phenomenon.
Myself, I like Tangerine Dream and consider THIEF one of the best electronic scores ever, but their work for LEGEND (written on a tight deadline, I understand) is often indistinct and incoherent. The 80s rock vibe really cheapened the movie, which in its American cut was bad enough already. Take how the two scores approached the goblins: Goldsmith's infamous "synth fart" actually captured the venal malevolence of the creatures quite well, as Paul Maclean noted in the booklet. Tangerine Dream's material is literally just a series of bangs and clangs. There are some nice moments in their score though.
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Although the film flopped hard, it did develop a following of youngsters on video, like several other of the 80s fantasy epics. To this small but eager following, the Tangerine Dream score was all they knew, and many of them grew to love it. Most of them didn't hear Goldsmith's score until the director's cut was released many years later; to them, Tangerine Dream's score is the real deal, and Goldsmith's is inferior. It's runs almost exactly opposite to the opinion of the soundtrack collector community. I don't agree with them, but it's interesting phenomenon.
Myself, I like Tangerine Dream and consider THIEF one of the best electronic scores ever, but their work for LEGEND (written on a tight deadline, I understand) is often indistinct and incoherent. The 80s rock vibe really cheapened the movie, which in its American cut was bad enough already. Take how the two scores approached the goblins: Goldsmith's infamous "synth fart" actually captured the venal malevolence of the creatures quite well, as Paul Maclean noted in the booklet. Tangerine Dream's material is literally just a series of bangs and clangs. There are some nice moments in their score though.
Yes I very much agree with this.
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Posted: |
May 19, 2021 - 4:17 PM
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By: |
MikeP
(Member)
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Although the film flopped hard, it did develop a following of youngsters on video, like several other of the 80s fantasy epics. To this small but eager following, the Tangerine Dream score was all they knew, and many of them grew to love it. Most of them didn't hear Goldsmith's score until the director's cut was released many years later; to them, Tangerine Dream's score is the real deal, and Goldsmith's is inferior. It's runs almost exactly opposite to the opinion of the soundtrack collector community. I don't agree with them, but it's interesting phenomenon.
Myself, I like Tangerine Dream and consider THIEF one of the best electronic scores ever, but their work for LEGEND (written on a tight deadline, I understand) is often indistinct and incoherent. The 80s rock vibe really cheapened the movie, which in its American cut was bad enough already. Take how the two scores approached the goblins: Goldsmith's infamous "synth fart" actually captured the venal malevolence of the creatures quite well, as Paul Maclean noted in the booklet. Tangerine Dream's material is literally just a series of bangs and clangs. There are some nice moments in their score though.
As much of a TD fan as I am, the score on LP is chaotic , fragmented. Likely they had a very narrow window to do 80 minutes of music, so they seem to have concentrated on key scenes to make whatever impact they could, and rushed through the rest ( that's my guess ). But for me there's a lot of good music not on the album, some very atmospheric and evocative stuff - Johannes Schmoelling has a long track from Legend on his Early Beginnings album ( I think that's the one ? ) and it's very good. What can be heard of the climactic music is good and propulsive as well.
TD has never really done any thematic scoring, their scores hold together by the soundscape - Firestarter doesn't use repeated themes, but the synth sounds for that score are distinctive and don't sound like Sorcerer or Heartbreakers. I guess each has their own identity is what I'm trying to say. There's little to zero chance of ever getting an expanded score, but it'd probably play better on its own where it can be heard.
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Goldsmith's infamous "synth fart" actually captured the venal malevolence of the creatures quite well, as Paul Maclean noted in the booklet.
Thanks!
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Although the film flopped hard, it did develop a following of youngsters on video, like several other of the 80s fantasy epics. To this small but eager following, the Tangerine Dream score was all they knew, and many of them grew to love it. Most of them didn't hear Goldsmith's score until the director's cut was released many years later; to them, Tangerine Dream's score is the real deal, and Goldsmith's is inferior. It's runs almost exactly opposite to the opinion of the soundtrack collector community. I don't agree with them, but it's interesting phenomenon.
With me it is completly opposite 
My first contact with "Legend" was Silva Screen release of Goldsmith score. I feel in love with this music, becaus it is really fantastic fantasty score, beautifully performed (thank God it wasn't Hungarian Orchestra!) and with great, but maybe not-so obvious themes. Then I have watched dir cut and I like a lot this film even with his flaws (bad pacing for sure).
Then i've read about whole Tangerine Dream situation, score replacement etc. It was very hard to found Theatrical Cut of this film to watch but finally I was able to sit through the film. And then the movie begins with those crawl text prologue, Tangerine music starts... and I was like thunderstruck. In just few seconds I was transfered to another world in which all history happens, Yes, there are obvious cuts in the movie, but pacing is better and music creates unique, alien-like atmosphere.... my favourite themes are prologue (which is tracked in film few times), cottage theme, Darkness theme, and dress waltz it is just... like from another world.
And you need to know that Im not fan of electronic music, I never was, but this particular music, in this particular film hits me all the time
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Posted: |
May 20, 2021 - 7:37 AM
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By: |
c8
(Member)
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Since we're now talking about the film itself...
I found out about Legend because of Goldsmith. I didn't know about or watch the movie beforehand. I became familiar with the Goldsmith score long before seeing the movie. So the version of the movie I first watched and came to know was the 113 minute "Director's Cut."
Tangerine Dream, back in the day, got a terrible rap in these parts because of Legend. That's completely unfair to them. They were given a job and they did it. Their non-film work has always been a hallmark of Eurosynth atmosphere. Go listen to Phaedra and trust me, you'll see what I mean. I think that the only thing that's unfortunate is that Goldsmith and TD seemed to take veiled jabs at one another in contemporary interviews. Alas.
The problem with the American cut of the movie has nothing to do with TD. It has to do with being edited and marketed as a piece of 80s MTV-schlock and a teenage love film. It isn't, it never was, and it really never would be. Between TD's score and the added suggestions of sex (overt or otherwise), the whole thing was just cheesy as a wheel of gouda. TD scored the movie they were given with what I assume was the direction and tone they were told told to use. And yes, the score was corny and, to me, went a long way in making the American cut unwatchable. I consider TD's score inappropriate. But I consider it inappropriate for the film Ridley Scott sought out to make that I experienced via the Goldsmith score and first viewing the DC. TD's score is totally appropriate for the film that got released in the US.
The larger issue, watching the American cut and the Director's Cut back to back is that its clear how unfinished the Director's Cut is. Visual and sound effects are missing, edits are incomplete, etc. And its maddening that critical scenes are missing from the Director's Cut but are trotted out in the very compromised American cut (restoration of the alicorn, I'm looking right at you) which, in some ways, take away story beats from the DC. I also own a healthy dose of skepticism that Ridley Scott is without blame for the American edition. Studio meddling, yes, but he also clearly filmed two openings and several endings. Perhaps there were reshoots before the American release, but that wasn't as much a thing in the days before digital editing, and I've never read anything to suggest Legend reentered production to change things up for the American version.
Like I said in my initial post, I want to see the cut of the movie Goldsmith scored. He had a way of making things work in his music for sure but the score, unedited, is very coherent and makes me think he watched a film that made sense. Its too bad that so much of Legend has been lost (be it different versions of the film, Goldsmith's printed scores, the master tapes of Goldsmith's score, etc.). There's enough in the American version that should have been in the DC that could be restored that I would love to see an official reedit not unlike Blade Runner: Ultimate Edition. For my money, Legend deserves it.
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Tangerine Dream, back in the day, got a terrible rap in these parts because of Legend. That's completely unfair to them. They were given a job and they did it. Their non-film work has always been a hallmark of Eurosynth atmosphere. Go listen to Phaedra and trust me, you'll see what I mean. I think that the only thing that's unfortunate is that Goldsmith and TD seemed to take veiled jabs at one another in contemporary interviews. Alas.
I think there's a lot of love for Tangerine Dream on this forum, just not for Legend in particular. I listened to the TD score for the first time in decades and it is just not engaging, unlike their terrific scores for Thief, Sorcerer, and even Firestarter. Clearly, time was an enemy for them and though I don't like what they came up with, I can hear the European folk influences in some of their cues. Goldsmith's score also uses folk song harmonies but in a more developed way, the same manner in which Bartok, Mahler, or Stravinsky embraced them on a symphonic scale. For the subject matter, this seemed like a more appropriate avenue to take.
I do wish members could make their disdain for a score clearer insofar as why it might not land with them in a particular way rather than invalidating the composer(s) or whatnot. No composer goes into a film thinking "hey I'm going to write the biggest pile of crap and not even try". So many things can occur during production.
That said since this is a forum about the end result, ie the soundtracks/film scores, discussion ensues about this since most of us aren't privy to all of the things that occur on any given film.
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Mann pretty much admits that the score to Thief was probably not the best choice. The other idea, a jazz type score, would have actually been a whole lot better. It is better than Legend, but it dates Thief terribly, and it is very distracting.
Well, that is interesting but I think Thief is perfect the way it is.. Remember this was an era when music was allowed to stand out and help define the atmosphere. the characters, the narrative. today the mandate for music is for it to be amorphous and stay out of the way. Damn shame if you ask me.
I studied jazz composition and theory in university back in the day. I love it but I can in no way see that working better than what TD did for Mann. I think jazz would have stood out more and also made the film less unique. I love the contrast of synths to the visuals. And TD were working with less popular models like the GDS so the sound doesn't come off as ubiquitous or dated. At least the way the use of the DX7 and D50 do in retrospect.
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Posted: |
May 20, 2021 - 10:20 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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Mann pretty much admits that the score to Thief was probably not the best choice. The other idea, a jazz type score, would have actually been a whole lot better. It is better than Legend, but it dates Thief terribly, and it is very distracting.
Well, that is interesting but I think Thief is perfect the way it is.. Remember this was an era when music was allowed to stand out and help define the atmosphere. the characters, the narrative. today the mandate for music is for it to be amorphous and stay out of the way. Damn shame if you ask me.
p.s. I studied jazz composition and theory in university back in the day. I love it but I can in no way see that working better than what TD did for Mann. I think jazz would have stood out more and also made the film less unique. I love the contrast of synths to the visuals. And TD were working with less popular models like the GDS so the sound doesn't come off as ubiquitous or dated. At least the way the use of the DX7 and D50 do in retrospect.
I can see that point about jazz, it would need to be a very careful and subtle jazz score, not a very busy thing for sure. Something like the Heat score would be effective. I do not have a problem with scores that stand out for the most part, the electric sizzles are certainly unique in Thief. I think I recall one of the TD guys actually seeming pretty honest that he was not that confident in the score as well. You really can see how Mann moved toward more ambient subtle scores in a lot of his later films.
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I can see that point about jazz, it would need to be a very careful and subtle jazz score, not a very busy thing for sure. Something like the Heat score would be effective. I do not have a problem with scores that stand out for the most part, the electric sizzles are certainly unique in Thief. I think I recall one of the TD guys actually seeming pretty honest that he was not that confident in the score as well. You really can see how Mann moved toward more ambient subtle scores in a lot of his later films.
I actually don't see HEAT as jazzy... Goldenthal uses some minor7ths and minor9ths but there isn't really a lot of harmonic extensions that are jazz oriented. It's a very textural score and I love it of course- very organic but let's face it- Heat is Mann's triumph deluxe. I don't think he's ever quite gotten as close to perfection as that film. Goldenthal was a great choice to score it. His cerebral approach was a perfect compliment to that tone of the film.
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Posted: |
May 20, 2021 - 11:18 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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I can see that point about jazz, it would need to be a very careful and subtle jazz score, not a very busy thing for sure. Something like the Heat score would be effective. I do not have a problem with scores that stand out for the most part, the electric sizzles are certainly unique in Thief. I think I recall one of the TD guys actually seeming pretty honest that he was not that confident in the score as well. You really can see how Mann moved toward more ambient subtle scores in a lot of his later films.
I actually don't see HEAT as jazzy... Goldenthal uses some minor7ths and minor9ths but there isn't really a lot of harmonic extensions that are jazz oriented. It's a very textural score and I love it of course- very organic but let's face it- Heat is Mann's triumph deluxe. I don't think he's ever quite gotten as close to perfection as that film. Goldenthal was a great choice to score it. His cerebral approach was a perfect compliment to that tone of the film.
My memory is rebooting, now I am recalling that The Insider is more jazz flavor. But, yes Heat is a very nice score, never had a proper full release on CD I think. I am probably the oddball, I actually prefer The Insider as a film more than Heat, it may be as much as any other reason because these characters in Heat are just so loathsome and horrible, and the acts of violence are a bit much for me to take these days.
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I can see that point about jazz, it would need to be a very careful and subtle jazz score, not a very busy thing for sure. Something like the Heat score would be effective. I do not have a problem with scores that stand out for the most part, the electric sizzles are certainly unique in Thief. I think I recall one of the TD guys actually seeming pretty honest that he was not that confident in the score as well. You really can see how Mann moved toward more ambient subtle scores in a lot of his later films.
I actually don't see HEAT as jazzy... Goldenthal uses some minor7ths and minor9ths but there isn't really a lot of harmonic extensions that are jazz oriented. It's a very textural score and I love it of course- very organic but let's face it- Heat is Mann's triumph deluxe. I don't think he's ever quite gotten as close to perfection as that film. Goldenthal was a great choice to score it. His cerebral approach was a perfect compliment to that tone of the film.
My memory is rebooting, now I am recalling that The Insider is more jazz flavor. But, yes Heat is a very nice score, never had a proper full release on CD I think. I am probably the oddball, I actually prefer The Insider as a film more than Heat, it may be as much as any other reason because these characters in Heat are just so loathsome and horrible, and the acts of violence are a bit much for me to take these days.
I find I tend to watch Collateral more these days. Probably Cruise's best role ever. Great film.
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Posted: |
May 20, 2021 - 11:48 AM
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By: |
Ado
(Member)
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I can see that point about jazz, it would need to be a very careful and subtle jazz score, not a very busy thing for sure. Something like the Heat score would be effective. I do not have a problem with scores that stand out for the most part, the electric sizzles are certainly unique in Thief. I think I recall one of the TD guys actually seeming pretty honest that he was not that confident in the score as well. You really can see how Mann moved toward more ambient subtle scores in a lot of his later films.
I actually don't see HEAT as jazzy... Goldenthal uses some minor7ths and minor9ths but there isn't really a lot of harmonic extensions that are jazz oriented. It's a very textural score and I love it of course- very organic but let's face it- Heat is Mann's triumph deluxe. I don't think he's ever quite gotten as close to perfection as that film. Goldenthal was a great choice to score it. His cerebral approach was a perfect compliment to that tone of the film.
My memory is rebooting, now I am recalling that The Insider is more jazz flavor. But, yes Heat is a very nice score, never had a proper full release on CD I think. I am probably the oddball, I actually prefer The Insider as a film more than Heat, it may be as much as any other reason because these characters in Heat are just so loathsome and horrible, and the acts of violence are a bit much for me to take these days.
I find I tend to watch Collateral more these days. Probably Cruise's best role ever. Great film.
I have not watched that one in a while, I need to play that again soon.
Yes, you are probably right about that being his most interesting character.
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Posted: |
May 22, 2021 - 4:47 AM
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By: |
MikeP
(Member)
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Mann pretty much admits that the score to Thief was probably not the best choice. The other idea, a jazz type score, would have actually been a whole lot better. It is better than Legend, but it dates Thief terribly, and it is very distracting.
Well, that is interesting but I think Thief is perfect the way it is.. Remember this was an era when music was allowed to stand out and help define the atmosphere. the characters, the narrative. today the mandate for music is for it to be amorphous and stay out of the way. Damn shame if you ask me.
I studied jazz composition and theory in university back in the day. I love it but I can in no way see that working better than what TD did for Mann. I think jazz would have stood out more and also made the film less unique. I love the contrast of synths to the visuals. And TD were working with less popular models like the GDS so the sound doesn't come off as ubiquitous or dated. At least the way the use of the DX7 and D50 do in retrospect.
Actually what Mann said, and more than once, is that he'd had second thoughts about the TD score and at times wished he'd used Chicago blues tracks, needle dropping the score. Kinda like how he went back for the Criterion Blu Ray and colored the thing green, claiming that was his original intent.
Mann has his talents, but he's notorious for fiddling with his films post release, and slicing and dicing the music for his movies.
With Thief, his second thoughts are wrong ( in my opinion) . The green color grading is horrendous ( in theaters it was actually in color. More than one color  ) and the TD score fits the movie like a glove. Cold, calculating and tying in with the high tech heists shown in the film.
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Regarding Goldsmith "Legend". In my collection I habe Silva CD which is wonderful album and great listening experience.
They are slight differences in few places to original release by Filmtrax.
But did anybody know what is status of Legend tapes.Ate they "lost"? And how much music than Silva cd exist if anything?
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I can see that point about jazz, it would need to be a very careful and subtle jazz score, not a very busy thing for sure. Something like the Heat score would be effective. I do not have a problem with scores that stand out for the most part, the electric sizzles are certainly unique in Thief. I think I recall one of the TD guys actually seeming pretty honest that he was not that confident in the score as well. You really can see how Mann moved toward more ambient subtle scores in a lot of his later films.
I actually don't see HEAT as jazzy... Goldenthal uses some minor7ths and minor9ths but there isn't really a lot of harmonic extensions that are jazz oriented. It's a very textural score and I love it of course- very organic but let's face it- Heat is Mann's triumph deluxe. I don't think he's ever quite gotten as close to perfection as that film. Goldenthal was a great choice to score it. His cerebral approach was a perfect compliment to that tone of the film.
My memory is rebooting, now I am recalling that The Insider is more jazz flavor. But, yes Heat is a very nice score, never had a proper full release on CD I think. I am probably the oddball, I actually prefer The Insider as a film more than Heat, it may be as much as any other reason because these characters in Heat are just so loathsome and horrible, and the acts of violence are a bit much for me to take these days.
I find I tend to watch Collateral more these days. Probably Cruise's best role ever. Great film.
@ Mr. Coscina: What about the score? I may attempt to snag a copy, but before I do that, seeking the opinion of a trusted FSMer is always useful.
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To be honest I bought it but have never played it. Heat is much more of a memorable score. JN Howard’s music is pure atmosphere and nothing more. Goldenthal’s is a character in Heat.
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