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In US dollars, the tally now stands at $21,314 (of $38,000) from 263 backers, after only ~48 hours! That's pretty damn impressive. And even more impressive, as Roger noted in his first update: the halfway point ($19,000) was reached only a little after the 24 hour mark. I went back and looked at the old Dial M for Murder Kickstarter thread... would anyone care to guess how many hours it took that Kickstarter to reach its halfway point? I think a lot of people may be surprised, considering it managed to reach its goal two days before it ended.
Oh, and just because I felt like it, a belated response to my pal Schiffy:
I think these are fantastic choices. Of course no choice will be everybody's choice. And I think we have to face the reality that there are few scores that will raise the $38,000 needed for these (and of course, some scores would be considerably more expensive). Joan of Arc may be a brilliant score (I'm a Friedhofer fan, but I've never seen the film), and I would support it, but boy, it seems like a very long shot to sell more than a few hundred copies. That may be a shame, but there's a distinction in the real world between what should be and what is.
That's true, but I'd point out that Joan of Arc could still happen as a Kickstarter given those parameters. Dial M for Murder required $45,000 to be raised (it was a longer score than Black Patch and The Man combined, and maybe used a larger orchestra) and it got over $49,000 in the end, from only 404 backers. It seemed touch and go there around the halfway mark, like it might not have happened. But it made it in the end (and then some) because enough of those 404 people gave generously. If enough people (even just a few hundred) give enough money (obviously some for Dial M gave quite a bit!) something like Joan of Arc could still happen as a Kickstarter even if it wouldn't be viable as a regular release (I don't think Dial M for Murder would have been). The only way to find out is to try, and I hope Intrada gives it a shot sometime in the future... if it's not successful they can just pivot to a different score at that point, IMO.
Like Yavar, I supported the Dial M for Murder recording even though Tiomkin is not my thing. That recording was very well done, a true passion project… and still not my thing. But I did what I could.
Yeah I played Dial M for Murder once and never felt like playing it again, but I'm still glad I supported that Kickstarter. I know that like us, Cody did support Dial M even though he wasn't any more enthusiastic than we were about the choice of score to record. I hope he supports this Goldsmith twofer for the same reason, despite his lack of enthusiasm. I suspect he'll like both scores much more than he expects, but even if he doesn't it still encourages re-recordings of older scores to continue, which I know is something he wants.
The only thing that's a bit sobering is how dry the Goldsmith well is getting. Sure, there are still quite a few early television scores that still deserve attention, and a few films that exist only in pretty atrocious audio (The Chairman is pretty painful, sonically, and the excerpts Tadlow recorded a few years ago were a revelation). But unless somebody records whatever Goldsmith wrote for Babe or orchestrates his full score demo for The Kid (a better companion for The Man?), there's precious little left. I'm not complaining, but it does give me pause.
Can't agree with you there, Schiffy! IF we are talking strictly Goldsmith theatrical feature film scores which were used in the film (so excluding Babe and The Kid and any other rejected scores however much was written) and have no prior release (even truncated or problematic releases like The Chairman or especially Ransom), then hell, this Kickstarter is going to pretty much close the book! But that's a lot of caveats. I guess there's also The General with the Cockeyed Id, but that was for a short film not a feature-length one.
But if you remove those caveats, there are still a half dozen or so unreleased scores for feature length TV movies (which after all included The Man, until it was decided to release it theatrically in some territories). Some absolutely fantastic ones like Crawlspace and Pursuit, at least one not so great (to me): Do Not Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate. And there are plenty of theatrical film scores that haven't been expanded yet, either because elements apparently don't survive (Ransom, The Chairman, Under Fire, Link) or because Varese owns them in perpetuity and they haven't gotten around to them (The Other, the two Flint scores, Love Field, Mom and Dad Save the World, Medicine Man, Hollow Man, The 13th Warrior, Matinee, etc. etc. etc.)
And most importantly (which you seem to acknowledge) there is the vast sea of unreleased music he wrote for episodic television! Once you include that there is SO MUCH unreleased Goldsmith out there which could be premiered: one of his two Perry Masons, two of his three scores for The Lineup, at least six episodic scores for The Waltons (though they may be lost and require a new recording), six Gunsmokes, two Have Gun - Will Travels, two Wagon Trains, three Destrys, at least two Breaking Points, and at least one each of Rawhide, 37th Precinct, Ben Casey, The Legend of Jesse James, Kraft Mystery Theater ("Shadow of a Man"), Bracken's World ("A Score Without Strings"), CBS Playhouse ("The People Next Door" -- origin of Chinatown!), and Chrysler Theater ("A Killing at Sundial" -- absolutely fantastic!). God knows how many episodes of General Electric Theater he scored, really...some of which probably later filmed episodes which could have scores surviving in the vaults, though I think he may have done some in the live TV days as well. Then there a bunch of cool scores for unsold pilots like World in White, Crime Classics, The Sergeant and the Lady, Prudence and the Chief, The Expendables, Tomorrow's Newspaper, The Best of Times, and probably others I don't know about (what is this The Gambler, the Nun, and the Radio thing I always see credited to Jerry but have never been able to find?)
There's plenty more Goldsmith out there to hope for, my friend. Once you include new recordings into the bargain that also opens up all the music he wrote for live television and radio in the 50s. There would be no "original recordings" out there but they could be reconstructed either by ear or from the surviving sketches (there's a lot of CBS Goldsmith stuff where music sketches survived the ages better than the actual TV episodes!)
Yavar
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Posted: |
Aug 8, 2021 - 1:40 PM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Yavar, I'm right there with you about Goldsmith's episodic television work. Some of my most-listened-to Goldsmith includes his Twilight Zone, Thriller, and Cain's Hundred scores (and others I'm forgetting). I bought Along Came a Spider and Chain Reaction (and others I'm forgetting), but I put those way, way behind so many of those episodic scores.
And yes, The General with the Cockeyed Id would be great! I wasn't trying to be gloomy about this at all, it's just that what once seemed like a bottomless well of goodies yet to come is showing its bottom. That said, none of us will live forever, so no reason to hold back!
As for Joan of Arc (just a title that a few here have mentioned), of course anything's possible. If it happens, great. But I wouldn't consider it an especially realistic probability. I guess I know it's a film that exists, but it's pretty obscure now, and it's seventy-three years old. I'm not so young anymore myself, I went to film school, and I've never seen a frame of this film, and I would imagine it only gets more obscure for people ten and twenty years younger than me. Also, it's from a composer I think is great but who is not a strong seller. (I recall John Morgan reporting that the Morgan/Stromberg Friedhofer album – which is fantastic and everybody should buy – sold quite poorly.)
Yes, the Dial M Kickstarter was ultimately a success, but that's a title that's marginally better known (the Hitchcock name may not mean what it once did, but he still has some brand recognition). But even then, it took a last-second contribution from a very generous donor to put that one over the top. (I believe I know where that final donation came from, and if I'm right, we could not count on that contributor for every score.)
All of which is a long way of saying, Yavar, I'm with you, and fingers crossed this Kickstarter funds!
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Joan of Arc is also available on a very nice Blu-ray from Kino, even if it’s not quite up to the standards Warner has set with their most recent Technicolor restorations. While I enjoy the film very much, it does tend to get a bit stagey at times reflecting its origins as a stage play (and I’m not just referring to the scenes depicting Joan’s trial). The fact that it’s also overlooked because of the more well known Passion of Joan of Arc also doesn’t help its current standing. That said, in addition to Friedhofer’s score (unfortunately, that website containing the recording of the overture doesn’t seem to be working anymore), the film has some very strong Technicolor production values (it won one of the first Costume Design Oscars) and has a very good performance from Ingrid Bergman as Joan.
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Posted: |
Aug 8, 2021 - 3:59 PM
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By: |
Katsoulas
(Member)
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Yavar, I'm right there with you about Goldsmith's episodic television work. Some of my most-listened-to Goldsmith includes his Twilight Zone, Thriller, and Cain's Hundred scores (and others I'm forgetting). I bought Along Came a Spider and Chain Reaction (and others I'm forgetting), but I put those way, way behind so many of those episodic scores.
And yes, The General with the Cockeyed Id would be great! I wasn't trying to be gloomy about this at all, it's just that what once seemed like a bottomless well of goodies yet to come is showing its bottom. That said, none of us will live forever, so no reason to hold back!
As for Joan of Arc (just a title that a few here have mentioned), of course anything's possible. If it happens, great. But I wouldn't consider it an especially realistic probability. I guess I know it's a film that exists, but it's pretty obscure now, and it's seventy-three years old. I'm not so young anymore myself, I went to film school, and I've never seen a frame of this film, and I would imagine it only gets more obscure for people ten and twenty years younger than me. Also, it's from a composer I think is great but who is not a strong seller. (I recall John Morgan reporting that the Morgan/Stromberg Friedhofer album – which is fantastic and everybody should buy – sold quite poorly.)
Yes, the Dial M Kickstarter was ultimately a success, but that's a title that's marginally better known (the Hitchcock name may not mean what it once did, but he still has some brand recognition). But even then, it took a last-second contribution from a very generous donor to put that one over the top. (I believe I know where that final donation came from, and if I'm right, we could not count on that contributor for every score.)
All of which is a long way of saying, Yavar, I'm with you, and fingers crossed this Kickstarter funds!
If all students of Goldsmith like Marco Beltrami and Brian Tyler who have millions supporting this project then in only one day we complete the task. But if we do it with a chip orchestra like symphony of Bulgaria or Ukraine we will need Less than 30.000.
Bulgarian symphony orchestra has a rent 10.000 dollars per day.
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And Cody himself said the film wasn't all that good! So it's bizarre that he's attacking you for not having seen it, when you already said you'd love a new recording of the score.
Yavar
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Posted: |
Aug 8, 2021 - 6:16 PM
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By: |
cody1949
(Member)
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Not seeing the film is a poor excuse.
Not sure I understand, Cody. A poor excuse for whom? Or what?
A poor excuse for not knowing the score when it can be bought as a Blu-Ray or DVD or seen ocassionally on TCM. I have seen BLACK PATCH on cable a few days ago and THE MAN on YouTube and that's whenI came to the conclusion of its worthiness for a recording. Of course you are a supporter of its release and that's your right as well as my right to disagree, but at least I have seen it. Does that make any sense to you ? It makes sense to me.
I think you misunderstand me. I would support a Kickstarter for the Friedhofer score as well. My only point was that it seems to me it would be a long road to funding such a project. You disagree, and that's fine.
I also have a long, long list of movies I want to watch, and sorry to say, Joan of Arc would be very far down the list. Time is not abundant these days.
Perhaps I have misunderstood you. Glad you would support a recording of JOAN OF ARC. Did you read my earlier posts. Here's my thinking: I am sure if a person wants something bad enough , he should be willing to pay a higher price. If I paid ...say $120 for one CD of JOAN OF ARC , that would be like buying 6 CD's of BLACK PATCH. Produce less initially and see how many people will want that initial release. Not everybody who loves the "golden age" are 6' under or on the FSM board posting. Do you remember the line from FIELD OF DREAMS ? Well , here's a little twist on that line, produce a CD of the score of JOAN OF ARC and they will come. Thanks for your civility and I hope you understand.
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Posted: |
Aug 8, 2021 - 6:48 PM
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By: |
cody1949
(Member)
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Not seeing the film is a poor excuse.
Not sure I understand, Cody. A poor excuse for whom? Or what?
A poor excuse for not knowing the score when it can be bought as a Blu-Ray or DVD or seen ocassionally on TCM. I have seen BLACK PATCH on cable a few days ago and THE MAN on YouTube and that's whenI came to the conclusion of its worthiness for a recording. Of course you are a supporter of its release and that's your right as well as my right to disagree, but at least I have seen it. Does that make any sense to you ? It makes sense to me.
I think you misunderstand me. I would support a Kickstarter for the Friedhofer score as well. My only point was that it seems to me it would be a long road to funding such a project. You disagree, and that's fine.
I also have a long, long list of movies I want to watch, and sorry to say, Joan of Arc would be very far down the list. Time is not abundant these days.
Perhaps I have misunderstood you. Glad you would support a recording of JOAN OF ARC. Did you read my earlier posts. Here's my thinking: I am sure if a person wants something bad enough , he should be willing to pay a higher price. If I paid ...say $120 for one CD of JOAN OF ARC , that would be like buying 6 CD's of BLACK PATCH. Produce less initially and see how many people will want that initial release. Not everybody who loves the "golden age" are 6' under or on the FSM board posting. Do you remember the line from FIELD OF DREAMS ? Well , here's a little twist on that line, produce a CD of the score of JOAN OF ARC and they will come. Thanks for your civility and I hope you understand.[/
Schiffy, I never attacked you. Not everything that comes out Yavar's mouth is wisdom.
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I’ve never made any claim to wisdom, though I do my best to be as well-informed as possible. You certainly seemed to be taking Schiffy to task for not having seen Joan of Arc (“that’s no excuse”) and seemed, by your own later words, to not have realized that Schiffy (like you and I) has repeatedly expressed interest in a recording of Joan of Arc and that he would support such a Kickstarter.
Also, for someone who seems to place a value on civility (thanking Schiffy for his, anyway), you have repeatedly displayed a striking lack of it in this very thread, as soon as you discovered what Intrada chose to record. One wonders what you hope to accomplish by writing things like this, but these comments certainly reflect more poorly on you than they do on Intrada or these two Goldsmith scores they chose to record:
If it's not Hugo Friedhofer's epic score to JOAN OF ARC, then we will know who had the final say.
So if you didn't get the exact score you wanted as a Kickstarter campaign, someone else had the final say about what to run a Kickstarter campaign for besides Doug and Roger?
I congratulate Yavar for having such a powerful influence over Intrada. If they are successful as they most likely will be you will be getting more Jerry Goldsmith with BLACK PATCH and THE MAN. I hope Tadlow and Quartet will give us something special in the future.
This implies not only that Intrada didn't select "something special", but also couldn't make their own decision to record Jerry Goldsmith's first ever feature score, and that they are somehow under my influence. So I guess you're implying that I make Intrada's decisions for them and I'm the mysterious person that had "final say" -- what would you have said if it was The Jungle Book? John Takis made them do it?
I am so grateful to William Stromberg for all the great scores that he has resurrected in the past for Naxos and Tribute Film Classics that it boggles the mind how he could go in this direction. Imagine.... from Tiomkin's RED RIVER to Goldsmith's BLACK PATCH. Goldsmith has done many many great scores and thankfully they have all been done already. Even by James Fitzpatrick at Tadlow. What we are getting now are his lesser known scores that led to his great works for major films. So if you are a Goldsmith completist , I understand your need for his "baby pictures " so to speak. By the way, I saw BLACK PATCH in my On Demand cable setup a few hours ago ... a real inexpensive soap opera in a western setting that is 95 percent indoors. In short... a real sleeper
...zzzzzzzz.
Could you be a little more insulting? I'm amazed you revisited Black Patch so recently yet found nothing of musical value in it, even the primary theme for the title character. It’s giving a sweeping romantic treatment a ways into the score that I would think would be right up your alley, assuming you love beautiful Golden Age melody:
https://youtu.be/jo4jD5xF3YA
There’s a part in that when the music swells that just sends CHILLS up my spine. I relistened to the Marco Polo Red River when you seemed to indicate that Bill Stromberg has so fallen from grace recording a supposedly-inferior score… and all I heard was a few simple ideas, repeated ad nauseum with little variation (maybe it would have come across better as a 10 minute suite of the main thematic material but in complete form it totally wore out its welcome with me.) Certainly no spine chills at all; I found it a very surface level score (a cattle drive is happening? Let’s play THIS idea yet again) without any of the more subtle musical development and underscoring of character featured in Black Patch (and it’s not as if Red River as a film was devoid of character study and acting that would have benefitted from a more character-centric approach). But if you get chills listening to Red River, great. People have different taste and that’s okay. But you could express your own disagreement in far less insulting and disdainful way.
For those of you who buy a CD because of a composer's name regardless of the music on the CD... well , enjoy. That's you. Thank God, it's not me. Have no fear , Jerry's " baby booties" is coming your way.
Why yes, apparently you can be a little more insulting. Here you imply that everyone who wants Black Patch on album only wants it because of Goldsmith's name "regardless of the music"... "baby pictures", "baby booties" (whatever that means)... you do know Goldsmith was in his late 20s and was an experienced veteran of composing for live radio and television at that point... right?
Intrada put up extensive samples of both scores on their Kickstarter campaign page. I'm sure that those who were unfamiliar with the scores listened to them before pledging, and made their minds up like adults about whether they liked the music enough to spend money on it. So far Intrada's decision has been borne out by much more support than their first Kickstarter received. Of course you are entitled to your (bizarre) opinion that apparently the scores are terrible, but you could certainly exercise a bit more civility towards Doug and Roger of Intrada, to say nothing of the many people who DO like/love this music and are very excited for this release. Oh, and for the record William Stromberg loves this music and is super excited to be recording both of them, in particular Black Patch.
Yavar
P.S. On the other hand, when you say "Not everything that comes out Yavar's mouth is wisdom," that implies that some of it IS... so maybe I should be thanking you for the unexpected compliment? 
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