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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2023 - 6:23 PM
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By: |
Mephariel
(Member)
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So the effect is real, as Thor affirmed, the creative sounds are moved outside the US as a result of the Zimmerization of Hollywood
Not quite true; they’ve always been there, but “you” haven’t necessarily cared to look for it 
Not quite what I meant, though probably clumsy phrasing on my part, of course it was always there, but it was not mostly, or almost exclusively outside the US. That has certainly increased, a larger amount of creative and personal composition is outside the US. Whereas the wallpaper paste composition, shifting sound clips around files from movie to movie and team composing - that is the current state of film composition in the US. And when it is something otherwise the composer is probably lower ranked, pushed out of mainstream or visiting from overseas for a gig. The easiest, summary, clear example, Balfe-ization, replacing Joe Kraemer, a solid composer who worked away loyally for years composing superb scores. What is the last major film he scored? A long time ago. What did Balfe do last year? A lot.
There is a larger amount of talent now worldwide than before because of natural growth. It is like saying there is a larger amount of NBA players that are international now. Of course. The world grows, not just the US. But I am not sure what you mean by creative and personal composition. There are plenty of composition in the US and outside of it that doesn't sound like RCP. Sounds like you need to listen to more scores. And you must be loosely using the word "creative" because I bet you a lot of people will say Arrival or Dune is creative, and to me Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is creative. Somehow I don't think those are the scores you are referring to.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2023 - 6:59 PM
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By: |
Mephariel
(Member)
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My problem with Zimmer isn’t about the music which isn’t any better or worse than any other. If you like it you like if you don’t you don’t. It still basically does what it’s supposed to and from what I understand the way he’s doing it is similar to the way Lionel Newman worked at 20th Century Fox during the 1950s. I just don’t like him. I know that’s unfair and I’m trying to overcome it. But I can’t help feeling that he acts like a conman, over confident and always smiling. I have no way of knowing if he is a conman and clearly the production companies are happy with him and he delivers for them. So please don’t take this as criticism of Zimmer it isn’t. It’s a criticism of me. I was just wondering if anyone else has the same issue.
That point of view is valid.
Now watch how fast some others try to make it INvalid.
I don't necessarily get the con-man vibes but there is something a bit off putting about how he surrounds himself with so many classically trained musicians and he himself is not classically trained and yet so many treat him like he is the savior of modern film music. Perhaps the problem is in comparing Zim to one of the great composers who worked solo, had one--mayybe two orchestrators, and did everything themselves with pencil and a piano.
I mean, yeah I know it's pretentious and I'm a luddite but I'm sorry, I'm not giving the same kind of reverence that I give to Williams or Goldsmith or Barry or Herrmann to guys like Zimmer or Trent Reznor or even Danny Elfman or David Arnold because I know they have a team of classically trained support that can translate their scores into something a pick up orchestra can play with minimal prep time. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they do (I consider myself a big Arnold fan and a fairly big Elfman fan but I know that also means I'm a Steve Bartek and Nicholas Dodd fan, too).
It sounds like the problem is that you don't understand film music. This also affirms what I said in another thread, which is that there a lot of fake film music lovers here. I think a lot of people here pretend to like film music when in reality they are really lovers of classical or symphonic music. I bet you if Mozart is still alive writing music, people here would laugh at John Williams fans. "How can you listen to trash like Williams when Mozart is playing his concert next door!?" Zimmer is writing music for a film, not a symphony for the elite. Same with Elfman. Their job is to compose music to fit the context of the film, whether it is classical, modern, or electronic. Your post completely dismisses anyone with an electronic music background. Basically anyone without a classical background. And I think that is ashamed.
I'll use this analogy. Film music is like films. It is about the end product. The best film or your favorite film is not necessarily the one with the best writing, or cinematography, or acting, or directing. It could be the one with the most heart and the most passion. I don't think anyone thinks Joseph Kosinski has the best technical ability as a director. I don't think Peter Craig is the best technical writer in Hollywood. Nobody thinks Top Cruise is the best technical actor in the world. And yet, many people love Top Gun: Maverick and think it is best film of the year. I don't care how many orchestrators David Arnold used, but "Bike Chase" is one of my favorite action cues ever and I will put him on a all time great list of composers who writes action.
And lastly, filmmaker is a collaborative effort. Yes, Danny Elfman used 5 orchestrators. And Denis Villeneuve used 22 assistant directors for Dune. Does that mean he can't be an all time great director? You shouldn't have to compose your own score, shoot your own movie, design your own costumes, just to be considered an all time great director. You just have to be good at what you do.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2023 - 7:27 PM
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By: |
robertmro
(Member)
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My problem with Zimmer isn’t about the music which isn’t any better or worse than any other. If you like it you like if you don’t you don’t. It still basically does what it’s supposed to and from what I understand the way he’s doing it is similar to the way Lionel Newman worked at 20th Century Fox during the 1950s. I just don’t like him. I know that’s unfair and I’m trying to overcome it. But I can’t help feeling that he acts like a conman, over confident and always smiling. I have no way of knowing if he is a conman and clearly the production companies are happy with him and he delivers for them. So please don’t take this as criticism of Zimmer it isn’t. It’s a criticism of me. I was just wondering if anyone else has the same issue.
That point of view is valid.
Now watch how fast some others try to make it INvalid.
I don't necessarily get the con-man vibes but there is something a bit off putting about how he surrounds himself with so many classically trained musicians and he himself is not classically trained and yet so many treat him like he is the savior of modern film music. Perhaps the problem is in comparing Zim to one of the great composers who worked solo, had one--mayybe two orchestrators, and did everything themselves with pencil and a piano.
I mean, yeah I know it's pretentious and I'm a luddite but I'm sorry, I'm not giving the same kind of reverence that I give to Williams or Goldsmith or Barry or Herrmann to guys like Zimmer or Trent Reznor or even Danny Elfman or David Arnold because I know they have a team of classically trained support that can translate their scores into something a pick up orchestra can play with minimal prep time. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they do (I consider myself a big Arnold fan and a fairly big Elfman fan but I know that also means I'm a Steve Bartek and Nicholas Dodd fan, too).
It sounds like the problem is that you don't understand film music. This also affirms what I said in another thread, which is that there a lot of fake film music lovers here. I think a lot of people here pretend to like film music when in reality they are really lovers of classical or symphonic music. I bet you if Mozart is still alive writing music, people here would laugh at John Williams fans. "How can you listen to trash like Williams when Mozart is playing his concert next door!?" Zimmer is writing music for a film, not a symphony for the elite. Same with Elfman. Their job is to compose music to fit the context of the film, whether it is classical, modern, or electronic. Your post completely dismisses anyone with an electronic music background. Basically anyone without a classical background. And I think that is ashamed.
I'll use this analogy. Film music is like films. It is about the end product. The best film or your favorite film is not necessarily the one with the best writing, or cinematography, or acting, or directing. It could be the one with the most heart and the most passion. I don't think anyone thinks Joseph Kosinski has the best technical ability as a director. I don't think Peter Craig is the best technical writer in Hollywood. Nobody thinks Top Cruise is the best technical actor in the world. And yet, many people love Top Gun: Maverick and think it is best film of the year. I don't care how many orchestrators David Arnold used, but "Bike Chase" is one of my favorite action cues ever and I will put him on a all time great list of composers who writes action.
And lastly, filmmaker is a collaborative effort. Yes, Danny Elfman used 5 orchestrators. And Denis Villeneuve used 22 assistant directors for Dune. Does that mean he can't be an all time great director? You shouldn't have to compose your own score, shoot your own movie, design your own costumes, just to be considered an all time great director. You just have to be good at what you do.
Be careful, you have inadvertantly mixed two posts together. I don't think you meant to insult me but you have. Go back and read my original post by its self and decide whether you think I deserve: "you don't understand film music". This is on of the problems with such an antiquated website combined with a group so ready to attack anything.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2023 - 7:29 PM
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By: |
Mephariel
(Member)
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The other problem here too is that Hans happily allowing his company to soak up so many prime assignments has hastened the obsolescence of some of his truly gifted contemporaries, and has also led to a real dearth of emerging composer talent for the next generation.
This is so true.
I know secondhand of at least two (not well known but very well respected) veteran composers in the industry who have bemoaned the fact that they have less time and money for a job now than they were when they were 30
How is that Zimmer's fault though? Hasn't that more to do with the changing of the post production process?
I actually work in post production, and an editor I know would often say, "Today's miracle is tomorrow's expectation."
I think that's the most corrosive thing that Media Ventures has done, and it is the point I was trying to make above. Zimmer has shown producers / media companies again and again that a large amount music can be made-to-order at the last possible minute in the post production process, and that any adjustment can be accommodated.
While it's something that CAN be done (at least by MV), I would argue that is not something that SHOULD be done. It has greatly lowered the standard for everyone, and allows studios to stamp the life out of anything that's a little unusual or creative. I remember Randy Newman saying in the 90s that he wouldn't take a job if he had fewer than 5 weeks to do his work. That's an extreme luxury now. If producers thought that picture absolutely had to be locked 5 weeks before the recording dates / mix sessions took place, they would plan accordingly and allow for that time. They have been shown and again that that deadline can be pushed, and so it has been.
When editors and sound mixers talk amongst themselves about how poor the work conditions have gotten, the elders in the guilds say that we have done it to ourselves by consistently pulling rabbits out of our hats in impossible situations. And they're correct. If Hans hadn't aggressively brought back team-scoring in the 90s himself, I'm sure someone else would have done it. But that doesn't make the practice good, and it doesn't make it right.
It is not good, bad, right, wrong. It is necessary. Simple as that. You actually think filmmakers today are making tons of adjustments simply because composers can make music to accommodate it? You don't think it is because of the advancement of digital filmmaking, the reliance on test audience results (welcome to the age of rotten tomatoes and social media), and the rise of franchises (which means endless studios control)? Composers help assemble the bus, but they don't drive the bus. The market and industry heads do. Zimmer created a structure that serves the modern day industry. If he doesn't do that, he won't successful. That is an industry problem, not Zimmer. And yes, deadlines exist. You can push deadlines, but that also means more time and money spent. Plus the crew and composer may not even be available past a certain date. Jonathan Broxton from UK Movie Music said as much. Even if you want to write a score all by yourself, you may not be able to because you are simply not available. And having a team doesn't mean you can meet any deadline. Dunkirk is a classic example. Zimmer and Nolan got into conflict because Nolan asked Zimmer to keep changing and composing right up close to the release date and Zimmer was going on tour. Yes, he brought resources in to finish the job, but their relationship was never the same.
So you are right. Rush jobs shouldn't happen. But it is not team scoring that is creating rush jobs, it is the ego of studios and directors.
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Posted: |
Jan 24, 2023 - 8:58 PM
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By: |
Howard L
(Member)
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It sounds like the problem is that you don't understand film music. This also affirms what I said in another thread, which is that there a lot of fake film music lovers here. I think a lot of people here pretend to like film music when in reality they are really lovers of classical or symphonic music. I bet you if Mozart is still alive writing music, people here would laugh at John Williams fans. "How can you listen to trash like Williams when Mozart is playing his concert next door!?" Zimmer is writing music for a film, not a symphony for the elite. Same with Elfman. Their job is to compose music to fit the context of the film, whether it is classical, modern, or electronic. Your post completely dismisses anyone with an electronic music background. Basically anyone without a classical background. And I think that is ashamed.
Hello, Mephariel.
Somewhat tangential, but I’ve pointed out that “false film music fans” can be recognized by how they make all sorts of claims to loving film music but their words actually denigrate the art form of creating music in support of film. And criticism of the composer without regard for the context you cite can, accordingly, be very unfair.
This thread addresses critical context, particularly its entries beginning May, 2015:
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?pageID=1&forumID=1&threadID=89753&archive=0
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It sounds like the problem is that you don't understand film music. This also affirms what I said in another thread, which is that there a lot of fake film music lovers here. I think a lot of people here pretend to like film music when in reality they are really lovers of classical or symphonic music. I bet you if Mozart is still alive writing music, people here would laugh at John Williams fans. "How can you listen to trash like Williams when Mozart is playing his concert next door!?" Zimmer is writing music for a film, not a symphony for the elite. Same with Elfman. Their job is to compose music to fit the context of the film, whether it is classical, modern, or electronic. Your post completely dismisses anyone with an electronic music background. Basically anyone without a classical background. And I think that is ashamed.
I appreciate your diagnosis (I didn't realize I was a fake film music fan...whodathunk!?!) but it really just boils down to I don't like Zimmer's film music for the reasons I already stated and that's my opinion. He's a one trick pony. Also, I have not completely dismissed anyone with an electronic music background--if you go back to my prior post, I mention that I like many electronic scores...so keep your shame for something actually shameful.
And lastly, filmmaker is a collaborative effort. Yes, Danny Elfman used 5 orchestrators. And Denis Villeneuve used 22 assistant directors for Dune. Does that mean he can't be an all time great director? You shouldn't have to compose your own score, shoot your own movie, design your own costumes, just to be considered an all time great director. You just have to be good at what you do.
At no point do I say that working solo makes you better, simply that I reserve more respect for those that do than those that surround themselves with tons of assistants.
If you read my previous post, you'll see I am a fan of Arnold and Elfman and maybe it's just because I feel like I would rather grab a beer with them than Zimmer or maybe it's because I just like their music better than his...
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If you read my previous post, you'll see I am a fan of Arnold and Elfman and maybe it's just because I feel like I would rather grab a beer with them than Zimmer
What if he changed his name to Hans Zolo?
If he was buying, sure.
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I have no problem with Hans Zimmer at all.
I liked what he did with No Time To Die and always enjoy Inception, Beyond Rangoon, The Last Sumurai, Hidden Figures and Interstellar.
'The Holiday' is another good one.
Some seem to loath him because he changed the model of film scoring. Lot's of synths and more of a team reffort than previously.
Lot's to enjoy in many of his scores.
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