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 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 9:16 AM   
 By:   moolik   (Member)

Just when you thought that you are listening to an " original " score by this guy ...once again you got proven wrong....
It's funny ..I always thought that at least AN AMERICAN TAIL was quite original ...but than I listened to Alexander Borodin's THE STEPPES OF CENTRAL ASIA..and you hear An American Tail.

This is not supposed to be a Horner bashing post...it's just funny how Horner seemed to get the right tracks for his scores....and yes..I must admit I was a bit dissapointed for I always thought that he did write that score all by " himself" ...still a great adaptation or incorporation !

 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 9:44 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

That's okay, Borodin is clearly borrowing from The Rite of Spring in the same piece. Everyone loves re-recordings around here so no one should have any issues. Horner is the best at adapting pre-existing material and making it better. I'll give him that.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 10:05 AM   
 By:   Nono   (Member)

That's okay, Borodin is clearly borrowing from The Rite of Spring in the same piece. Everyone loves re-recordings around here so no one should have any issues. Horner is the best at adapting pre-existing material and making it better. I'll give him that.


Stravinsky was not born when Borodin composed In the Steppes of Central Asia.

 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 10:10 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

That's okay, Borodin is clearly borrowing from The Rite of Spring in the same piece. Everyone loves re-recordings around here so no one should have any issues. Horner is the best at adapting pre-existing material and making it better. I'll give him that.


Stravinsky was not born when Borodin composed In the Steppes of Central Asia.


I plead ignorance.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 10:20 AM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

making it better

I plead ignorance.


The sequence sounds just about right.

 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 8:22 PM   
 By:   steffromuk   (Member)

There are two composers I have a dilemma with Because they're some of the best at producing the most fitting and serving score for the stories they're supporting and I dearly love the fruit of most of their works. But It hurts every time I find out about the original works they borrowed (Stole?).
One is James Horner, and the other is Yoko Kanno.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 8:28 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

There are two composers I have a dilemma with Because they're some of the best at producing the most fitting and serving score for the stories they're supporting and I dearly love the fruit of most of their works. But It hurts every time I find out about the original works they borrowed (Stole?).
One is James Horner, and the other is Yoko Kanno.


@ steffromuk: uncredited, adapted and arranged would seem to be the most accurate description, although, and to be completely fair, I'm not as familiar with the repertoire of Yoko Kanno as I am with Jamie Horner's.

 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 9:08 PM   
 By:   steffromuk   (Member)

@ steffromuk: uncredited, adapted and arranged would seem to be the most accurate description, although, and to be completely fair, I'm not as familiar with the repertoire of Yoko Kanno as I am with Jamie Horner's.

As soon as they don't credit their source, there's a strong element of dishonesty in my eyes. So I'll stand by my words.
But I strongly recommend you check the work of Y. Kanno. She's a true versatile genius in re-arranging and composing highly emotional pieces
Vision of Escaflowne, Wolf's Rain, Cowboy Bebop, Macross Plus, Turn A Gundam, Earth Girl Arjuna, Memories "Magnetic Rose" are among her very best works

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 24, 2020 - 9:20 PM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

@ steffromuk: uncredited, adapted and arranged would seem to be the most accurate description, although, and to be completely fair, I'm not as familiar with the repertoire of Yoko Kanno as I am with Jamie Horner's.

As soon as they don't credit their source, there's a strong element of dishonesty in my eyes. So I'll stand by my words.
But I strongly recommend you check the work of Y. Kanno. She's a true versatile genius in re-arranging and composing highly emotional pieces
Vision of Escaflowne, Wolf's Rain, Cowboy Bebop, Macross Plus, Turn A Gundam, Earth Girl Arjuna, Memories "Magnetic Rose" are among her very best works


@ Mr. steffromuk: I hear ya and I'm in complete agreement. I just wanted to soften the blow. smile

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 5:32 AM   
 By:   moolik   (Member)

I must agree with @steffromuk...even though I know that everybody is standing on the shoulder of giants ...and either " learn"..adapt...borrow whatever..somehow I feel different when someone takes whole sequences and put them into their compositions.
We had this discussions a lot on this forum ..I know..nothing new...but its astounding how much there is within Horners ouvre
that consists of existing material.

Its almost like a fun thing to do when listening to Horner....

 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 6:19 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Funny thing is I love this piece of music and have several versions of it. None of them start with the "offending" theme so I've never heard this before.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 6:29 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

It is a form of cheating, even if they do somehow improve on the original piece and it fits the film or sequence like a glove.
Some composers did it more than others, or were just more obvious with their steals.
While Horner seems to top the charts for it, Philippe Sarde, Jerry Fielding and Bill Conti were also very guilty of some obvious and continuous cribbing from other sources, and/or constant re-use of existing material of theirs.
Also, the early scores of Christopher Young are saturated with them.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 6:36 AM   
 By:   chriscoyle   (Member)

To use the old Picasso quote " Good artist copy Great artists steal". So I guess we each have to decide did he copy it or steal it?

 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 6:39 AM   
 By:   Nicolai P. Zwar   (Member)

That's okay, Borodin is clearly borrowing from The Rite of Spring in the same piece. Everyone loves re-recordings around here so no one should have any issues. Horner is the best at adapting pre-existing material and making it better. I'll give him that.


Stravinsky was not born when Borodin composed In the Steppes of Central Asia.


I plead ignorance.


Alexander Borodin knew no shame, ripping off highly esteemed composers such as Stravinsky before they were even born!



"Good composers borrow, great composers steal!" said Igor Stravinsky.

 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 6:40 AM   
 By:   Mr. Jack   (Member)

Listening to the piece now, and yeah, there's definitely a resemblance. Not enough to "ruin" Tail for me (it's still one of Horner's very best), but it always irks me when I learn where he cribbed ideas from.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 6:55 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

I remember hearing that particular piece on a Classical music radio station in the UK some years ago, and doing that wry smile that I've always done when I've heard one of Jamie's thefts.
His detractors will keep using it as a stick to beat him with and to try to invalidate his considerable compositional skills.
His fans will keep on listening and loving his film music for the pleasure and joy it brings them.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 8:12 AM   
 By:   CindyLover   (Member)

I get back to me when complain that his 48 Hrs. score of a copy of some classical work.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 8:24 AM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

I get back to me when complain that his 48 Hrs. score of a copy of some classical work.

I think the scope of his pilfering (my apologies: I meant the unauthorized, uncredited appropriation of someone else's intellectual property) went way beyond the classical world.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 8:49 AM   
 By:   KeV McG   (Member)

For anyone to deny that Horner didn't have his own, unique voice or style - no matter what excerpts he utilised - and didn't create new, fantastic and memorable themes during his career, are, quite simply, deluding themselves.

 
 
 Posted:   Jun 25, 2020 - 8:52 AM   
 By:   Advise & Consent   (Member)

For anyone to deny that Horner didn't have his own, unique voice or style - no matter what excerpts he utilised - and didn't create new, fantastic and memorable themes during his career, are, quite simply, deluding themselves.

Isn't pilfering and calling it your own a form of delusion?

 
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